This maybe old news to some, very new news to me.

It's called EDR and it's in your airbag systems. In short, it's a car's black box so they can improve safty.

Here is the article: Man busted for - not telling truth of speed

Here is a little more info on EDR : EDR Info

So does the Mini have this - it seems to be a standard.

What do you think - many Mini's speed :smile: Of course you have to crash for them to look at the data.

 

Interesting post, I was not aware of this!
Generally, I am in favor of this type of data recording and also in favor of making use of this data in criminal investigations related to a crash. I don't think this is a 'big brother' issue, since this data will only be used if there was a crash. If you are at fault for a crash, you should be held responsible for that, in particular in the cited example of causing a fatal crash while driving well over the posted limit. Keep in mind that this type of data may help you one day to get exonerated from a bad crash, or help you recover damages in a bad crash if you were not at fault.
I'm all for it, and would be in favor of using this type of data in any kind of crash, not just fatal crashes or those that result in criminal investigations!

Cheers,
M.

 

Howdy ToeKneeC67,

Good info & an interesting thread topic.

Perhaps you should turn it into a poll EDR: For v. Against, once folks get a gist for what the EDR encompasses.

I'm with MG-BGT on this one! From a safety engineering standpoint, - there are leagues of data & thus, potentially true information to learn from EDR technology.

Privacy Rights not-with-standing, - follow-up to recent cases involving data recorded in EDRs suggests currently that one's privacy rights will protect one's EDR data.... currently.

Our car-versionS of these "black boxes" are actually silver in color.

I'm sorry I forgot to ask RandyBMC about this over the weekend. He'll know if we've got these installed.

Thanks for sparking some interest, ToeKneeC67!
-sb

_________________
MINI: The best horse for the buck!

 

This is scary stuff. I agree with MG-BGT that it's fair and appropriate for crash inversitgators to have access to black box info. The guy going 114 in a 30 mph zone should get his *** tossed in jail.

The thing that concerns me, though, is insurers having access to the information. I can imagine a situation where an insurer might try to get the info and base a customers rates on it, or, for that matter, refuse coverage altogether.

This would essentially be the automotive equivalent of DNA profiling. Just like an insurer could refuse medical coverage if they think that your DNA indicates a propensity for cancer, heart disease, etc., they could refuse auto coverage if you use the gas pedal too often, or even if the vehicle dynamics info indicated that you drove in a "sporty" manner.

Big Brother is Wathcing!

 

I didn't post my viewpiont. I'm all for it but it's scary if mis-used.

My big issue would be speeding on the highway and them having proof :smile:

 

YIKES! However, if it keeps the roads safer, and prevents someone from going 114 mph in a 30mph zone, go for it. What a nimrod this guy was.

 

>>YIKES! However, if it keeps the roads safer, and prevents someone from going 114 mph in a 30mph zone, go for it. What a nimrod this guy was.

But officer, I was doing 114 MPH during the track day last weekend. Perfectly legal on a race track....

 

In some situation like on a race track there is no limit to speed. If the recorder give speed and date/time then there is no problem. If it doesn't record anything but speed at the time of airbag deployment then that is a different thing that would be good as evidence of wrong doing. might be a good safety measure. If it is used against speeders and they know of this- the speeders might want to disable their airbags so not to activate this record keeping or at least to disable the mechanism to record their speed. People will always find a way around any rule or safety measure. If you want to limit speeds then put on a speed governer that is lower like at 90 mph. On the highway it's possible to drive at 80 so 90 gives you a little room. Driving at 100-130 is a bit much if you don't have any interstate highways like I do in Hawaii. There aren't even long stretches greater than about 2 to 5 miles before you hit zones with curves or speed limits of about 45 to 50 (yes that is on the highway!- what were they thinking?). And no these are not speed traps.

 

>>about 2 to 5 miles before you hit zones with curves

MINI loves curves and twisties...

 

>>This would essentially be the automotive equivalent of DNA profiling. Just like an insurer could refuse medical coverage if they think that your DNA indicates a propensity for cancer, heart disease, etc., they could refuse auto coverage if you use the gas pedal too often, or even if the vehicle dynamics info indicated that you drove in a "sporty" manner.<<

This is a pretty weak argument. You can't change your DNA, but you can certainly refrain from speeding. Or is this the latest disorder to be ordained by science - CRSD, Compulsory Reckless Speeding Disorder?

 

This is scary stuff. Using it as backup after something has occured is one thing.
The problem is that this is technologically one step removed from real-time remote access to your vehicle information. Which is one step removed from real-time monitoring of your data. Which is one step from getting citations in the mail because you exceeded the speed limit 5 days ago while on xxx highway.
BIG BROTHER is everywhere. :evil:

 

I have to say that this reminds me of some of the arguments against electronic toll collection devices (e.g,. EZPass) when those were first introduced. The fear was that any law enforcement agency using a calculator (ok, that probably limits the field a bit ) could figure out if you were speeding by tracking the time it took you to transit between two points of a known distance apart. Using this data, they could issue tickets after the fact with conclusive proof of speeding.

OK, sure, it's technically possible. But, the key is that while information is collected on any number of actions and behaviors it's LAWS that control how that info is used....and most specifically, when a law enforcement agency wants to prosecute you, they need to base that prosecution on info that they can legally access. EZPass toll records, and presumably the data in your car's "black box", can't (currently) be used to support that sort of traffic law enforcement prosecution.

Now, not to totally toss out this concern, I do have to note that this is why all of us should be very, very, concerned with the degradation of privacy that is coming from things such as the Patriot Act. These laws/acts/legislation seem to start with the basic premise that law enforcement has the right to mine through data to find what it wants to find...and if we allow this trend to continue, it's not a particularly long road before we find that we've given away the protections against just the sort of legal intrusion that is at the core of this post (about the black box). Still though, I'd be much more worried immediately about my financial records, airline ticket purchases, library/video store records, and online babblings than what my MINI might be able to tell the cops.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Here's a site that has more info on Event Data Recorders (Crash Data Recorder).

Harris Technical

 

This discussion is continuing to be very interesting!

Based on the online info I have seen so far, it would seem that these EDRs record only a very limited data set, only for the last bit of time just prior to airbag deployments. In addition, that data would only be accessed if the airbags have gone off and need to be replaced. That alone would probably ensure privacy to the required extent and to make most people happy.

However, the issue of how insurance companies will deal with this info/data may be a very, very important issue that I had not considered! What if the maniac who went 114 (or at least way too fast) in a 30 mph zone killing 2 innocent people, had insurance, but his insurance refuses to pay on grounds that he went waaayyyy beyond good and evil or anything reasonable in fact. I remember reading about some clauses that allow insurers to weasel their way out if someone had done something completely unreasonable (but I'm not sure this is in fact true). I think this is the one aspect of the comparison to DNA testing that does somewhat bear out: the potential of an insurance company to weasel their way out of an obligation, at the expense of the victim. And we all know that if any insurance company sees a way of doing that, they will! It's not so much the DNA testing, and therefore not a company refusing to insure, but instead, refusing to honor obligations on account of their supposed unreasonableness.

Still, overall I am in favor of having and using these EDRs, but agree with some that the use of this data should be tightly regulated.

 

i herd they are putting gps's on rentacars now so that they can tell if ur speeding.. i only herd this tho... im not 100% sure about it

 

This is just another way to reinforce the fact that the USA is the most powerful "Socialist Democracy" in the world. I think Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson would crap thier pants if they knew what America was like today.

 

From the Harris site I posted earlier.
An air bag deployment is not required for information to be recorded. Data may be recorded by the EDR for "non-deployment" events such as rollover, sideswipe, and side impact accidents. When an an air bag deployment accident occurs, the data is recorded onto an EEPROM (Electrically Erasable Programmable Read-Only Memory) computer chip. When a near deployment event occurs, the information is stored in the memory for 250 engine cycles (each time the car is turned on is a new cycle), which is about 60 days for the average, noncommercial use.

***Motor Safely***

 

Benjamin Franklin said that those who would give up a little freedom for security deserve neither. In the US we have the right to face our accuser in court. To say it is O.K. to have an electronic device be your accuser is a little over the top for me. We are on a slippery slope when we allow electronic data recorders to become common place and acceptable to spy on us.