This is all true.

However, more importantly, most Europeans have NO clue as to how big and vast the US is. One example ...

During Katrina on another MINI board, they were wondering why help wasn't flooding in quickly to effected areas. They had no concept whatsoever that the effected areas were greater than the entire land mass of the UK and part of Europe.

Heck ... you could squeeze most of Europe into East of the Mississippi.

The concept of distances easily traveled just aren't the same.

 

Chows, I think I was involved in that discussion. Mostly Brits being pretty critical. I pointed out how in the UK they do not have the mother nature disaster problems. No tornados, earthquakes or hurricanes.

 

ES, you were? Cool. Yeah, they were bashing us pretty good.

 

Good points! I think we have to remember that many parts of the U.S. really developed in the 20th Century after the advent of the auto. That's an important distinction, because residential development/density changed dramatically when the auto became the personal choice of travel.

Think about the major U.S. cities that were large prior to the auto - New York, Chicago, Philly for example - they all have more developed mass transit because residential and work development supported it before the car was invented.

Now consider cities that became major in the 20th century after the advent of the auto - L.A., Houston, Atlanta for example - their patterns of development revolve around the auto and the freedom it gives individuals to move about at will. They don't have credible mass transit because the car obsoleted it for the population.

Europe has mass transit for the same reason - it worked prior to the auto, and now the prior population centers retain their design (and the people) to support it. Frankly, most modern European cities have the same traffic problems as our cities, so I wouldn't hold them up as any examples to follow.

I'm just not certain if mass transit will really work here, except in those types of cities I've mentioned. I think the best thing that could happen is for the price of gas here to more closely mirror the price overseas, and we will see people make different choices for their modes of travel.

I wish the character assassination of everyone driving an SUV would cease. It's distasteful, and speaks more about the one assigning character traits than the one being criticized.

 

:thu mbsup:

 

Completely unrelated as the H1 got smaller to be the H2, and smaller yet to be the H3, I was thinking of making a topper for a Moke that looked like a hummer style top and making a lable for it designating it the H169......

Well it made me laugh to think of the idea....

 

dental work?

 

I totally agree to a point when I mentioned spread I meant the design and invention of the suburb. I live in one such area and have seen some public transport work from this area and if they made some changes it could actually work in my opinion. This from someone who lives in the largest county which holds the largest city in the country (probably world). I do agree that the landscape was created out of the invention of the auto but it is not an excuse to give up hope on public transport.

I wanted to point out in no way was I saying anything negative about SUV's I was pointing out our history of jumping on vehicles with little to no MPG over and over. I was including 70's beasts in this equation. I think some people have needs for them, but do hate to see the waste of some who just plain don't but you know how it is like many other things there are always two sides.

 

See that makes perfect sense i have absolutely no problem with somebody owning an suv if they actually use it, but those people who buy em to but on 22s and custom paint annoy me so much especially because they cant handle those giant things cause they dont know what theyre doing

 

I've only met a handful of Mini drivers who can out drive our cars as they come from the factory. I am not among those either. So, where does our excessive use, or should I say waste, of automotive performance rank on the social offence scale?

Matt

 

62Lincoln said it best when he said "most modern European cities have the same traffic problems as our cities, so I wouldn't hold them up as any examples to follow"

Europe is not what people percieve it as. Many people are trading in their economic cars and getting a bigger, more luxurious SUV. Families over here are growing and a small car just isn't able to handle the growing needs. To add another point, its a status symbol. A symbol of wealth and power. When visiting UK for two weeks, I saw LOTS of big Land Rovers, mostly empty with men in expensive Gucci suits. Does that make them better than me? Does driving an SUV make you an evil person? No and its not the MINI philosophy to turn our nose's up at these owners. MINI is about being the bigger person, or in essence, the bigger automobile. If someone wants to drive a big gas guzzeling SUV, thats thier motive and I will certainly not force my opinion on them. I do also understand the waste and abuse of these vehicles. Those who drive them with 22's and tinted windows. Not exactly the best use of the vehicle. The same is true with other cars, inlcuding our MINI. Being here in the land of speed, I can use the true potential of my MINI, but in US, your wasting a large part of the car, and thats goes for any car such as a corvette, RX8, EVO. As mentioned in a previous post, where do we rank on the social offence scale? Question is... all those who own a MINI, do they participate in track days and rally events? If not then why do you boast about fast speeds if all you can do is the speed limit, provided you actually obey the laws.

BACK to the Subject...

In Germany, you also have suburbs and small villages set aside many miles away from a large thriving metropolis's. These vilages don't have public transportation so Eurpeans rely on cars. Why do you think we have Autobahns... Its certianly not for the public transportation system. Granted, buses use them, but its built for the expanding and growing population of automobiles. The public transporation system will always be here and will always be used to some extent. But when it comes to the simple tasks of going to work, or going to town to run errands, its the Automobile that will win. This only holds true if you live in the suburbs. The same does not hold true if living in a huge city like Berlin or Munich. Just like if I was living in New York or Philly, I would use the public trans system. Germany is spread out much like US, just on a smaller scale.

To wrap things up, I see both sides. Europe is a good example but keep in mind, much like American, Europe is evolving. I am as passionate about my MINI as many others on this thread and throughout the world. But I will never force my opinion on someone or degrade them for it. Only if they cut me off, give me the finger, or scratch my MINI will they lose my respect. Until that happens, I will respect the person and driver of any vehicle they have. Its the MINI way. The way it should be.

 

[IMG]images/avatars/union_jack.gif[/IMG] RudyT wrote:
<To wrap things up, I see both sides. Europe is a good example but keep in mind, much like American, Europe is evolving. I am as passionate about my MINI as many others on this thread and throughout the world. But I will never force my opinion on someone or degrade them for it. Only if they cut me off, give me the finger, or scratch my MINI will they lose my respect. Until that happens, I will respect the person and driver of any vehicle they have. Its the MINI way. The way it should be. >

Great post!

Maybe some SUV drivers are more aggressive here in Los Angeles (as are drivers in general here). One thing I notice a lot is that often they can't see a small car --or any car-- (I'm driving my Classic Mini a lot ). Seems to be a mirror problem or attitude issue or both.

Our freeways are so clogged now, at any hour of the day, that I avoid them if at all possible. I know people that commute long distances in order to be able to live in a decent neighborhood with decent schools, spending up to 2 hrs each way commuting every day. That's a lot of drive time. The LA freeways are exemplary of the poor planning in Los Angeles County and City. Here's a good example. I-5 in Orange county is about (years) to go to 10 lanes. LA has no plan at this time to remedy the traffic situation on the 5 or any other freeway. Public transportation in LA?...don't get me started on that! I-5 will , of course continue to flow through Los Angeles County (5 lanes) and the new 10 lanes will bottleneck at the County Line...brilliant!


My intial point was to remark on the fact that economics are changing peoples attitudes and habits as they are always prone to do. Not to dictate what people should drive. A $100 fill up is just that and for some it's getting painful-for others, driving an Escalade when you have no children and wouldn't think of dirtying the inside with cargo, is just wasteful --but as RudyT points out , that big honkin' SUV can be a status symbol. True...[yawn]. For others, driving a MINI is a status symbol..it's just more economical and I can see traffic down the road if a MINI (or regular car) is in front of me. Ahh....but we are Americans and as such we are known to be wasteful. Higher gasoline demand results in higher prices. We who choose more economical transpo pay the increased price too. Imagine if gasoline demand were cut by 1/2 or 1/3 because 13 MPG just wasn't attractive anymore.

The news is full of the plight of the Auto industry (and that of its workers) for the industry's unwise dependence on high profit trucks and SUVs which has fallen in the dumper. Japan, Korea and soon to be China are still kicking our butts in the small car market 25 years after the 70s 'gas crisis.'

I would also never force any practice (or car) on someone else. That said, I'm shopping for a scooter.

 

The sad thing is, we already had a solution. In fact, GM was one of the first to come up with a production electric car and actually leased them to many people who loved them. Then, suddenly they were yanked from owners and destroyed, to become but a memory and a mystery.

I never knew that this actually happened, had never heard of a production electric car before. I just saw the movie "Who Killed the Electric Car?" http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokille.../electric.html a couple of weeks ago and was really left dumbfounded and disgusted with the auto industry. If you are at all interested in the topic of automobile efficiency, I highly recommend this flick.

We have all been fooled on many levels by some of the major auto manufacturers. Unfortunately, too many of us were too busy trying to find the biggest and purportedly "safest" vehicle out there to realize what was being taken away from us. Maybe if more people knew about this, the auto companies who made and subsequently destroyed these electric vehicles could finally be held accountable for our petroleum addiction, gas prices and pollution issues...

 

This is the wet dream of half the SUV owners in my hood.




And this is the other half

 

It always floors me how people complain about other people's choices.

The reasoon to have a SUV? Because you want one.

Reason to have a JCW MCS with the works? Because you want one.

If people bought cars out of necessity or need there would be one company with few models to choose from.


Want to talk about why an xyz car isn't for you, I'll listen. Want to tell me why I or anyonelse shouldn't have xyz car..I'll tell you it not your choice.



Paul

 

Dr. O ... very eloquent and right on the money.

Whenever I see people just can't WAIT to add a pulley, get more HP, more, more and yet, tell them to go to driver school and they dont want to hear it. How many times do you read "I got XXX dollars, how to spend it?"

Worse yet, cars should be balanced between power, suspension and BRAKES. yet many owners do the brakes last. You would NEVER see, for example, a Porsche sold where the brakes weren't the most powerful thing first.

Since most of us can't drive 135 mph, top speed is a waste

 

I don't even want to imagine what hyperbolic ruminations come from that video, but do some homework about the facts. GM discontinued the car because it couldn't sell it at a profit. All the EV-1's were leased to the drivers, and the lease payments did not cover the costs. IIRC, the EV-1 cost GM upwards of $1 million per unit. Here's the real news flash: pure electric cars don't work in the marketplace. Even sainted Toyota isn't working on a pure electric.

Now, look at what evil GM have just announced: http://www.businessweek.com/autos/co...x+page_hybrids

Kind of kills the whole premise of the video, doesn't it?

 

Also, many, many many EV1 owners tried to buy their cars. Hauled off to the crushers...

And some of the car hackers (it's really just a big computer with wheels) got the range up to a couple hundred miles.

In an interview, Wagoner says one of his biggest regrets is killing that program, he did it when he was new to GM and didn't really know what he had.

My dad did some consulting for them,, and pointed out to Wagner that they had everything they needed to create a hybrid based on the technology out of the EV1.... And they did nothing with it. Now Honda and Toyota have the hybrid market pretty well wrapped up. (as an aside, he also pointed out that the GM brands were compteting with each other, and they should shed some, this was heresy, and his consulting didn't continue much longer..... Add 4-5 years, and Olds is gone. Buick still competes with some Chevys and some Pontiacs.... and we all know about GM corporate performance....)

The first of pretty much anything isn't the most cost effective way of doing things...

Hondas first hydrogen Civic is driving around LA, leased to some guy for the same as a regular Civic, or slightly more.... The car cost a million dollars to build. Why do they do that? To shake out the technology... Part of the development costs...

Sure Who Killed the Electric Car probably makes some exagerations or false claims....

But as someone who knows EV1 owners, many weren't bothered by the lease costs..... And would have gladly paid more... But were never given the option to.

Look at the Tesla.... It will be ~$100k, a bit of a premium for the performance... And it will sell. There's a guy converting Ariel Atoms to electric, for some ungodly mark up, and they willl sell.

GM flushed a whole technology and early market presence down the toilet when they killed the EV1. And thier financials show some of the consiquences....

Matt

And an introduction of a hydrogen car years after others have them out isn't a way to show that the decision to kill the EV1 was correct. IT's yet another example of the inertia of GM in coming to the party years after others have done so. The article says "to be made availble for journalists soon" and as I pointed out, Honda already has one in the hands of a CONSUMER. GM has screwed the pooch so many ways, its not even funny. And if you know something about the chimera-like hydrogen economy, you'll know that most of the claims are BS, that it will take longer than many think,, and that the most likely reason for current administration support is that the goal is so far away, that they can toot the hydrogen horn, let the oil companies keep doing what they are doing, and be out of office before the public realizes that, yet again, they've been fed a load of BS.

 

I'm not trying to defend the movie or persuade anyone that electric is the way to go, but my point was that the general public didn't even know these cars existed, and if the masses don't know, they can't buy. Who knows what sort of innovations might have been driven by demand that would lower production costs if a mass assembly line was started.

I personally don't care how they do it, as long as some solution eventually comes up that reduces dependence on oil. After all, it is not a renewable resource and humans have known this for a long time.

Back on topic, I think it's great that SUV owners are considering smaller vehicles. I think that the majority of the driving public can safely operate a small vehicle, while I can't say the same about operation of a large vehicle. There is a reason most bus drivers, van operators, etc must have special licenses. It is a huge adjustment going from a Honda Accord to a Ford Excursion (which I'm sure is often a real world scenario). I'll never forget a neighbor who told my parents she'd never get her 16 year old a car like my Sunfire because it was too small and unsafe. She then threw her inexperienced driver into a Ford Exploder, a much safer vehicle according to her.

I am also in the camp that feels that if you use it for what it's made to do, then fine. I am originally from Miami, FL and have seen the lines of Navigators, Suburbans, Escalades, etc. with one mom and one child waiting in an endless drop-off line at many schools in the area. Never do I see one filled with a bunch of kids carpooling. Oh yeah, and the ones that drive the thing to go get their nails done, burning up gas in traffic, not realizing that they acually have blind spots that they need to check, thinking they can bully smaller vehicles to pull off illegal lane changes. It never snows in Miami, there are no hills. Occasionally you'll see one hauling a boat - that is what an SUV is for!!

Bring on the SUV switchers! We'll actually be able to see down the road again .

 

ya, and maybe get on an on ramp and actully merge doing more then 35mph when the speed limit is 65.

There was a ford explorer (exploder? ) infront of me going to work yesterday as i entered onto an on ramp. The SUV was going super slow as it got onto the on ramp (which is the normal case) and i expected them to speed up to match the on comming traffic up ahead. Ya...so...they never did, they just continued to lumber on in their hulking mass of metal (down a loooong straight on ramp). They were going about 25mph all the way down the ramp with about 10 cars behind me bumper to bumper. At the very end of the ramp they maybe got up to about 35mph?

The whole time i kept glancing at my side mirror watching the traffic on the highway fly by us like we were sitting still, and i remember thinking to myself:

Holy $#!* this person is gonna get me killed! Hurry up and find your gas pedal!!!!!!

:impatient :impatient :impatient :impatient

This woulnt be so bad if it only happend once or twice, but this happens to me ALL the time, and i can say honestly, 90% of the time its a big SUV or truck. Maybe im just unlucky

I hope when they get smaller cars they dont drive the same way. It would make my soul cry.

-rant off-

 

that tthere are a bunch of SUV owners that own Minis too and are members here. I'm one of them.

Crappy drivers are crappy drivers. Doesn't matter what kind of car they drive. Heck, here in Silicon Valley, there are lots that didn't really learn to drive until they came to this country! I've seen Honda Civics come to a complete stop at the end of the onramp to "wait" for a long open stretch. This was not an isolated event.

Matt

 

Dr. O. Well said again!!!

Generalizations about any class of human beings is usually a bad thing. Saying that SUV drivers are crappy drivers makes just as much sense as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

 

Thats where most economy cars lack (either that or people don't know how to merge...). Having a small car with a small engine doesn't mean it has to be gutless. I must say I was very surprised when I first drove the MC. I never have a problem with lack of acceleration. In fact it feels just as fast to me as the VW Rabbit I test drove and the Rabbit has 140hp and 150lb/ft torque.

I understand why many people have SUVs. Many have legitimate uses for them and I'm not going to say who does or who doesn't need one. But I also think that the majority could do with a smaller more fuel efficient car or SUV. How did people get by before the SUV craze of the 90s? Much like new homes are becoming bigger and bigger, people feel that they need a large SUV. People have their right to choose, but they should also take into account the cost their decision has on society. However, I think the decision to settle for something smaller will ultimately be made easier as gas prices rise.

For an interesting perspective check out this article. It points out that the lady featured in the article was able to do everything in a Honda Fit that she did in her minivan.

Honda Fit

 

yah, including yours. my 06Civic is much faster than your MC.

 

From MSN Autos:
Honda Civic LX coupe - I4 1.8L (140 hp) 5M +8.04[0-60] 187.90145

From cardata.com:
The base model comes with a 115 horsepower 1.6-liter OHC 16V incline 4-cylinder engine that will take you from 0-60 mph in 8.5 seconds...

Now I realize that there may be variations. But, generally speaking the 06 Civic is .5 seconds quicker to 60, plus or minus .5 second. And, it has 25 more HP. I wouldn't exactly call that "much faster." My final point is that before the 2006 models, the highest horsepower Civic EX had 127hp which would mean that yes, most Civics are slower than the MC.

Unless of course you're talking about the Civic SI. In which case its not a fair comparison because then you should be comparing it to an MCS. That would be like comparing a VW GTI to a Civic EX rather than a Civic SI.