Not to start too many fights but I opened my mouth on another forum and got told how wrong I was. I've only test driven a Miata (many years ago) and never driven the Honda S2000. Someone on this other forum was looking for an inexpensive sporty car and these two were thrown out.

Now I threw out the Mini as another possibility and was told that it's handling doesn't anywhere match up (front vs rear drive etc etc). Was I really wrong?

 

nope... they're just snobs!

 

I'm by no means an expert or even a very experienced driver, but I've done a couple autocross runs in either of them. The Miata and the S2000 feel like they have more "potential", but IMO it takes a more skilled driver (than me!) to use that handling potential. The MINI is much easier and manageable for your average driver to pick up and have some fun. But I do believe the Miata and S2000 are capable of more.

It's not really a fair comparison anyways, though, because the MINI is a more practical car (rear seats!), and isn't really a purpose-built sports car. Thus it has a higher centre of gravity, etc. Of course, the MINI's handling is still fantastic. A more fair comparison would be the MINI vs. other hot hatches (directly competing with the Renaultsport 200, Vauxhall Corsa VXR... and somewhat competing with the GTI).

 

the Mini chassis is very, very capable. It's probably better than most drivers can really take advantage of. Wonder how many of the naysayers have actually driven one?

Matt

 

Motor Trend Magazine runs a handling comparison every year:
2008 (includes R56): http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...sts/index.html
2007 (includes GP): http://www.motortrend.com/features/1...car/index.html

 

As I recall the GP ranked #5 in the 2007 comparison. Pretty good when you look at the competition.

 

I think the MINI's handling is good enough for most people. One case: I was driving home from work on the highway and, out of nowhere, another MINI brutally cut in front of me. I had no time to react! I have a Clubman so I don't know how much faster a standard MINI can change lanes but it didn't seem to swing into the lane in front of me. It appeared to almost jump across. Unbelievable. MINI wasn't kidding about the go-kart handling!

 

So there you have it... if Motor Trend is to be trusted, then the R53 (in GP form) was the 5th best handling car in America of 2007, and the R56 was the 8th best handling car in America of 2008.

Send them the links to both comparisons and tell them that FWD does not automatically mean sucky handling & performance... it's all in how well it's implemented.

Also, challenge them - have they ever driven one? Especially one with the sport suspension? If not, then they have no place to argue from.

Oh yeah - remind them that the S2000 came in 7th in the 2007 comparison - 2 places below the GP.

 

Like so many things, it depends on what the OPer's friend describes as "Sporty" and "Inexpensive".

Assuming we're talking about buying something used, and back seats aren't a necessity, then I'd have to say the Miata should be near the top of the list. Bulletproof mechanically and cheap to fix when something fails, it's a "sporty" car that also usually dominates its classes at most autocross events. It's convertible, but a hardtop is available (often for under $1000 if you get lucky watching craigslist). But my beef with it is that is just has no torque. HP is OK, but torque is what makes a car fun, and to get any kind of TQ out of the engine you have to do some serious aftermarket forced injection. That's time, money, and hassle.

The S2000 may look like Miata, but it's a completely different animal. IT's faster, but there's no power under 5000 RPM's so you have to be constantly shifting gears to get anything out of it. The interior is closer to a Lotus than an Infinity as well - There's no place for that quart cup of Dr. Pepper - so you better not plan on getting that value meal to go. It's also pricey to buy and pricey to maintain.

I love my Mini (2004 with JCW engine and body mods), but it is a bit pricey to maintain. A clutch change requires dropping the whole front sub-frame - and the hourly rate for Mini service comes at a premium. THe power is mostly there - it certainly feels more spritely than most of the Miatas I've driven, but it still doesn't compare with the Corvette and 350Z I drive. Most importantly (for me) is that I just can't get used to the front wheel drive. Getting power to the ground in corners, especially slow corners that you want to accelerate out of, seems nearly impossible. Maybe I need more suspension mods. Maybe a Quaif limited slip is the answer (although limited slip FWD has other negative handling impacts). It's just that trying to put down power with the same tires that also do the steering makes low-speed, high-power manuevering nearly impossible to get right.

Oh, and the MT tests really aren't a good evaluation, since neither had the Miata in them. They didn't have any Subarus in them either (also relatively inexpensive to maintain).

Bottom line: If going fast isn't super important and he doesn't need a back seat, the Miata is the cheapest sporty car you can get - and even if it's high mileage you can still bet it will be dependable.

If sporty is defined as fast, then a Subaru STi WRX (assuming is wasn't used for racing), or early 350Z should be on his list.

If he's looking for a blend of everything, then the Mazdaspeed 3 or R53 Cooper S are good solutions (although be careful of high mileage versions as forced injection cars often have shorter engine lives). The Golf GTI shouldn't be overlooked either, especially if you can find a 2003-4 VR6 model (although it isn't s sporty looking as the later models).

 

I remember when the MINI first came out, Road&Track reported that it was the second fastest car they had ever tested through the 700ft slalom. They said the MINI, with the exception of the Porsche Turbo, was faster than any Corvette, BMW, Ferrari, ect...that they ever tested, at least in that one handling test. I was pretty obsessed on the MINI when it came out, and when I read that I knew I had to own one. FWD does have it's drawbacks, especially where handling is concerned, but it's not quite as bad as some would have you believe, cars like the MINI and the VW GTI are proof of that.

 

You need to watch some of the Grand Am races, or the BTCC, or any of the other series where FWD and RWD cars are racing each other. Each has their own pluses and minuses but they are both very competitive.

 

The best handling car I've ever owned, hands down, was a Porsche Cayman S. Mid-engined, rear wheel drive, relatively light, it has all the features and design that a "perfect" race car would have. Best handling car I've ever driven would have to be a Lotus Elise, same basic virtues as the Cayman but taken to the extreme in handling first/comfort later. That said, any of the three MINI's I've had have been great companions for fun-to-drive quotient and autocross prowess. I agree with one of the previous posters that the MINI should be compared to like products, i.e. FWD hot-hatches. Rates at the top for that category in my book but in no way should be compared to mid-engined sports cars....or RWD power hitters like the E46 M3 that I had before the Cayman. Never had a Miata but have driven several and it too is a lightweight, intuitive wonder but is should be as it's a dedicated two-seat sports car. I think our cars are a great value and offer a lot of utility, but in the grand scheme of things, there's a lot of other things out there that will go much faster around a curve.

 

The MINI definitely ranks high. I've had the opportunity to drive a variety of good-handling cars including my '70 Lotus Europa, a buddies 1st gen MR2, and our universities Formula SAE racecar. Obviously, the formula car wins hands-down but it's a purpose built racecar and can bite you pretty quick if you're not careful. The Europa and MR2 behave very similar. Both are slightly underpowered, yet great handling mid-engined RWD cars. While neither really has the highest overall grip, the balance is right on. The MINI has better grip than these simply because it has more rubber on the road. My Europa is rolling on 155's. You have to approach a corner completely different in the MINI compared to the Lotus. The MINI with it's inherent understeer seems to like coming in a little hot and off throttle, allowing the front end to get some extra grip and dig in while you scrub off speed. The Lotus is much more balanced and carries a slight rear weight bias. It requires a little more steady-state entry to the corner then get on the throttle past the apex to get the rear end to help out a bit.

All in all, the MINI seems to shine in the quick-response situations like lane changes and slalom. Since it has such a short wheelbase, it seems a little twitchy around long high speed sweepers. A great car for the money and one of the only sports cars than can seat 4.

 

The S2000's steering feels a little dead and it has no power below 5k thanks to the vtech engine, but if you keep the revs high it can be loads of fun, it drifts easily.

 

the Mini gets dismissed for two reasons...

1) Perception of being "cute" and all the off-beat marketing...

2) The fact that the HP numbers really lose the bench-racing game...

But there's no denying the fact that it's very, very capable. Those that think it isn't just haven't tried it. I was pitching an article about Ferrari owners who also own Minis, and it never flew... But on Ferrari owning neighbor (with a Mini as well) found 6 Ferrari owners in a bout a 25 mile radius of us that also have Minis.... One lady said "Well, of COURSE if you have a Ferrari you MUST also have a Mini!" (In a beautiful french accent...) Seems the common theme among the 2 brand owners was that the Prancing Horse just wasn't practical for everyday driving, and that the Mini was such a good driving experience that it covered the practicallity requirement, and also had great driving dynamics....


And as for the V-Tech engines.... A while ago my wife had a 99 Civic SI, and I had a 944 (for just 6 tanks of gas, but that's another story...). A buddy of mine and I took the two cars for a flogging through the hills and traded part way through. The 944 has a totaly flat torque curve, the SI, anything but. It was a lot more work to get the SI to perform because of all the shifting to keep the revs between 6k-8.25k, while the Porsche was just more forgiving about gear selection. The 944 was old and very tired, and couldn't match the newer car at the limits, but between the balance and the torque curve, was ultimately a more satisfying drive....

Matt

 

I have driven a 2002 Honda S2000 and compared to the MINI they handle completely different. I would say that the S2k handles a little bit better cause it feels more planted to the ground but the Mini can keep up with it if you know what you are doing.

 

From an Auto und Sport article referenced on Motoringfile...

09 JCW with Sport Suspension: 8:35

http://www.motoringfile.com/2009/06/...w-at-the-ring/

BMW 335: 8:26
Audi TTS (2.0 Turbo): 8:29
BMW Z4 3.0si Coupe: 8:32
Lotus Exige: 8:32
Honda Civic Type-R: 8:47
VW R32: 8:49

Hmmm... Looks like Mini can hang with some pretty good cars....

Matt

 

I sold my 07 Miata prior to getting the Mini so that is the only sports car I can compare the Mini to. Both are 6sp MT with stock suspensions. The Mini has the hp advantage and builds speed much better than the Miata. The Mini is more comfortable and has a better highway ride. The power delivery of the turbo is a blast. The torque steer... not so much.

The Miata is much more connected, more instant throttle response, much better feedback in the steering (no torque steer), more predictable, and could easily be induced into over-steer with the gas as well as the brakes. The near 50/50 balance of the Miata is hard to beat. Very fun and very confidence inspiring. The brakes are much bigger and better on the Miata than the Mini.


So IMO, the Mini is a great, fun-to-drive car and seats 4. The Miata is a better sports car.

I have a friend with an S2K and drove it once. I didn't like the power delivery. The Miata actually had torque in comparison and better (for me) handling. The seats in the S2K were much better than the Miata, but that was all I really thought was better.

 

the S2K can be a capable car if you're good a driving FR.
most people suck. this is why regular folks think the S2K
dont handle all that well.

same goes for other FR cars.

and VTEC is a pita imho to keep the rev in its sweet spot
all the time. i'd much prefer lower end torque engines.
(do you see a S2K in my garage? no... that's the reason )

MINI's are easy to drive fast through the corners. with
a few hopups, MINI's are super easy to drive very fast
through the corners where sports cars have a hard time
keeping up.