war6763,

I assume you are referring to the testing that we've done. Let me know when you are ready to test and I would be happy to help you through the process. The test equipment we use is complicated and quite expensive, but if you are only trying to determine if you've eliminated the 100Hz cutoff, I can walk you through how to do that with a good DMM and a test tone cd loaded into your iPod.

For others reading this thread that aren't interested in all the work required to get NCSExpert up and running in order to make the necessary software changes, there are other ways around the 100Hz cutoff. One is to use a signal summing device like JL's CleanSweep. Another, simpler way is to (shameless product plug alert) add our subwoofer system to your MINI. The subwoofer system taps off the front channels, avoiding the 100Hz cutoff. It also adds a high-power amplifier and a phenomenal 10" subwoofer able to produce all those frequencies below 100Hz - something the rear 6x9's can't do.

 

Regarding my earlier comments about the Gen1 H/K amp, the subsequent posters who propose 'going aftermarket' probably don't realize that it is not easy; wiring and speaker impedance are unique; can't just 'plug-in' an aftermarket amp to replace a defective H/K version.

 

Please go to the first gen forum, there is nothing in common between these models.

 

Also I have dug into the gong volume and have not been able to find a place to modify it. I know that would be a great option for the NAV people as they can't adjust it at all (like we can with the BOOST).

 

Impedance isn't unique, it's just that the stock speakers are absolute junk. They're such a low impedance because they're cheap. I assumed that you would be replacing your speakers anyway to handle the increase in power. If I was in your position, I'd go and rip out the stock system entirely. A properly tuned aftermarket system will blow any stock system out of the water, guaranteed.

Haven't had time to mess with it at all... but this weekend!! I promise! Do you think if I started a google doc sheet you could collaborate with me so we can keep track of what we've tried?

Kevin,

I'm referring to the testing that k6rtm has done to find out what the frequency response of the MCS really is. His method used a function generator, some DMMs and an oscilloscope to find out what the general frequency response is. My setup (since it seems that people might be interested) will include a function generator controlled via GPIB coupled with LabVIEW to generate the signals and a 16 bit ADC also controlled by LabVIEW to measure and plot the outputs. This should allow me to plot in .01 Hz increments if so desired and also to export the data.

You mentioned using a CleanSweep, which is a workaround, but not a very good one. Even with my DQL-8, it is impossible to get accurate signal generation because you can't generate something that was never there! What any of these signal summing devices will do is adjust your signal decay to be half of what can be found in the car, because I mean, they sum signals, right? So, speaking in terms of signal %, (100% + 0 %)/2 = 50%! So at 50 Hz, you will measure +10 dBm with a +20 dBm reference signal and as an added bonus, you lose the ability to fade.

As for using a subwoofer product and sourcing it from the front signals, this is also a bad idea. If you produce the same signals from your front speakers and from your subwoofer, you're producing signals of the same phase. If these signals are of the same phase, they will cancel out. What does this mean to the user? It means that certain frequencies, in certain locations within the car, will sound like "dead spots". When these signals negate, they are not perfectly in phase, thus producing very odd sound effects which sound very strange to the human ear.

So, no, putting in a subwoofer to cover 100 Hz and under is not a good idea. At least not for someone who would go through the trouble of tracking down the origin of the cause of the 100 Hz cutoff. NCS Expert is still the best way of correcting the problem, and also, it's relatively inexpensive compared to other solutions! If someone offered me lunch for modifying their ECU, I'd take them up on the offer!

Cheers!

war6763
Electrical Engineer

 

war6763,

You might want to review your old textbooks - in phase signals add, they don't cancel. Regardless, it wouldn't make any difference for the purposes of this discussion - ALL the signals from all four channels are all IN phase - and unless you do something VERY wrong phase isn't much of an issue at sub-bass frequencies.

We've done the same testing but with more precise results. Some MINIs use a notch filter rather than the 2nd order roll off seen in k6rtm's results:

 

I still don't understand what all the fuss is over "fixing" the rear channels? Just use the front signal to drive everything. Screw the rear channel its not really needed. As I've said numerous times before, the MINI, as with most car audio, is stereo front and rear, not a discrete 4 channel system. Excellent performance can be realized if quality aftermarket components are properly installed using the front stereo outputs.

BTW, "In Phase" signals are additive or complementary, "Out of Phase" signals are destructive or cancel each other. This effect is progressive as phase angle swings from 0 (in phase) to 180 (in antiphase) then back to 0. Phase can also differ over the frequency spectrum of a single channel but this is likely beyond the discussion of this thread so I won't bother going there.

 

I'm still worried about the phase differences caused by resonating panels, windshield, etc. I understand that the same will happen no matter what you do, but I've noticed the effects thoroughly within my car. The added rear frequencies greatly improve the audio quality when listening to music where their instruments' fundamental frequencies are centered around the notch (acoustic guitar).

Another thing to take into account is the input filter on the aux line-in. There is an active filter centered around 100 Hz which filters the input regardless of programming. If those measurements were taken using line-in, they're irrelevant. You must remove the filter to take accurate measurements (see first page of this thread).

 

I think there is a bit of confusion as to what "phase" is. "Phase", as it relates to sound systems, is a characteristic of the electrical signal, not the effect of a physical influence exerted by an outside force, parameter, or boundary.

Maybe I just don't understand what you are saying.

 

Not trying to debate, but as I have followed this and other threads I have always assumed folks want to preserve the rear channels to keep the basic factory fader control among other things; I expect running off front's only requires a fixed front to rear setting at the amp that isn't changeable in every day driving.

Other reason I can think of is the PDC (parking distance control) runs off the rear speakers IIRC for the occasional ones among us w/ that option.

 

With respect to the parking distance control functions, I would agree that the rear channel has some value. But I see no particular value in retaining the fader function.
Once the system's left/right & front/rear balance is properly set, I don't really see the need to have such "fingertip" control. Frankly, I can't see any control function that I would choose if it required such a sacrifice in sound quality and overall system performance.

 

Any word on a Countryman version yet?

 

rsbell, They don't even have the Clubman version yet, but I do know that they are working on both the Clubman and Countryman versions as we speak. I believe that these two versions are similar and are be being developed together.

I live right nearby their development facility and I've had several discussions with Kevin about the use of my '10 Clubman for testing and fitment purposes in the development of that product. That project was supposed to be happening sometime in mid February but I haven't heard from anyone since December. We've had a horrible winter here so that may have slowed things a bit. I know from my conversations that they are working on a number of projects that will be very interesting to many MINI owners. Hopefully things will pick-up soon.

 

Does anyone know if the dealer will modify the setting from "r56_stereo" to "r56_hifi"? Assuming for a fee of course. Any idea what it would cost? And will it remain at the "r56_hifi" setting if other software updates are done in the future (in other words, will they wipe it out when they update the software like they wiped out all the radio seetings when they fixed the windows not going all the way up?) And does changing this setting void any warranties? And lastly, has anyone near NYC or Philly done this specific change? Thanks.

 

I can't find the 2RAD module in my R56. Only the modules listed below show up in NCS Expert. I've checked MEDIA and CHAMP module, but the setting isn't there either. What am I doing wrong?


4BMOT
ABG
CAS
CHAMP
DSC
EPS
FRM
IHKA
KOMBI
MEDIA
SHD
SPEG
SZL


Thanks!

 

Nothing, you can't access the 2RAD with NCS Expert.

 

Thanks for your reply.

Any idea why I can't access it? Everybody else seems to be able to....or am I wrong about that?

Is there any other way for me to access it? One of my reasons for buying the D-CAN cable was to disable the rear 100Hz roll-off... that's why it bugs me so much that I can't access the module....

Thanks again!

 

The 2RAD needs to be programmed via ICOM cable.

 

Oh, and its not a 100Hz roll off, it a 70Hz notch.

 

Any recommendations for where can I buy an ICOM cable?
I assume that I can access the 2RAD module through NCS Expert when configured to work with the ICOM cable. Is that correct or do I need different software?

Thanks for all your help, TVPostSound!

 

If i change the setting in 2RAD module, would it be wise to add a DSP to the system?

 

Im not very familiar with details.
Search ICOM 2RAD ETC.

 

this just clinches it for me, im going to be replacing my busted oem head unit with aftermarket for sure...

 

Can anyone clarify this.... Does any signal INTO the Head Unit of the base stereo through the AUX-port get cutoff below 100HZ??



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