Bear with me, folks. I am hoping this is not some personal quirk of mine, or too techy of a problem. I'm looking for ideas on how to randomly play music via nn Ipod, without repetition.

When I play music, I don't want to hear the same song shortly after I play it. Better songs, sure, I am willing to hear them more often. But bad songs (lower rating) make for nice filler, but really, after that, they need to go away for a while and think about who they are. In the early days of my iPod life, that was working for me. And it's only getting worse.

See if you can follow me on this one.

I go into iTunes and I make a Smartplaylist.

I tell it to look for songs that have a rating of 5 stars and that have not been played in the last 5 days. This is just an example -- my actual playlists are a bit more involved.

I call that Smartplaylist MINI1

iTunes tells me that 55 songs match that criteria.

I play the MINI1 Smartplaylist via iTunes for a little while. 55 songs are on the list. After the first songs finishes, it drops from the list. 54 songs now match the criteria for this Smartplaylist. Then 53. Then 52. I like this. Whether it plays in random or straight through the list, I won't hear the same song twice.

At 50, I stop. I plug in and synch my iPod. MINI1 is one of the Smartplaylists that I load onto my iPod. With my clickwheel, I navigate to MINI1 on my iPod. 50 songs are on the playlist.

I put in my earphones. I play the first song. 1 of 50, it says. It finishes and the next song starts. 2 of 50. The first song I played no longer meets the criteria as defined in iTunes for MINI1, yet the song remains in the iPod as part of that Smartplaylist.

I tell the iPod to go to Shuffle mode. 3 of 50. Then 4 of 50. Because songs that no longer meet the selection criteria for MINI1 as defined in iTunes are allowed to remain a part of the play list on the iPod, as I play more songs, in seemingly random order, the odds now increase of hearing the same song again.

This would not happen in iTunes, because after being played, the song is removed from the Smartplaylist because it does not meet the selection criteria.

In iTunes, at least, there is a setting to tinker with "random." Apple lets you influence how hard iTunes works to keep like songs from being played near eather other -- songs from the same album, for example. This is, I know, because what most people percieve to be random, well, isn't. That you hear one song from, say, Hot Rocks by the Rolling Stones, and hear another song from the same album three songs later, in true randomness, is indeed possible. But most people, identifying a pattern, don't think it's random.

Why mention this? Random music is important to me. Random being the key word. Random, but without repeating. When iTunes plays, I understand (somewhat) how it is generating randomness, and I can influence that (in a very positive way) through the use of Smartplaylists -- the song can't play again if it's not on the play list.

Not so when I listen to the iPod. 50 songs -- with every passing song, the odds increase that I will hear again a song I have already heard.

And I really don't understand what happens when I plug the whole thing into the Mini Cooper S I drive.

Every time the radio goes off -- manually, or when the car goes off -- the play lists all start with the first song (1 of 50) and the "random" play setting it turned off. Has it lost it's logic?

I suspect that every time power is lost, it looses its memory of what has been played. Randomness starts all over again, from scratch.

So, a song plays, but stays in the Smartplaylist on the iPod, even though it doesn't match the selection criteria that define it on iTunes. And then, any time the radio goes off, I suspect that the Apple-provided influence on randomless is lost and randomness starts anew. Which isn't random.

When I listen with earphones, the iPod would resume at 5 of 50 in random mode. But with the iPod adapter in the Mini Cooper S, it starts all over again. iTunes does it right; iPod does not; iPod in car goes all wonky.

Yesterday, I was on the road -- three one hour segments to go to meetings. Heard two songs twice. It irks me.

 

This is an apparent quirk with the MINI iPod Adapter. This review of it back in 2005 highlights the same frustrations that you are voicing.

http://www.factoryofinfinitebliss.com/?p=615

I believe it stems from the fact that there are a couple of different levels at which external devices can attach to the iPod for integration through the dock connector. Most 3rd party devices use the higher level that provides very basic functionality over the iPod, very similar to the controls on the external wired iPod remotes that used to come with iPod back in the 3rd generation. Using this level is also the safest because it is very tolerant of having the dock connector removed at any time -- hence the "Ok to disconnect" is always visible.

The lower level provides the capability to act much more like iTunes and use the rating system, point in song where play was previously stopped, read iPod settings and change them, etc. but the lower type of connectivity requires a much more thoughtful (e.g. careful) disconnect by the consumer.

-Randy

 

The reason is simple. The iPod goes into UART mode when docked with the MINI iPod system, which is essentially a slave disc to the interface. Playlist count, ratings, etc are all discarded since the MINI kit is controlling the device.

The DICE allows the iPod to remain........as an iPod. This will retain all of your iPod-specific features you are already familiar with and allow a better listening experience.

 

Yeah, OK. Got it. So the iPod adapter is one weak link. Great. I chuck it and buy an ICE.

Anyone know how to solve the random-AND-not-repeating problem?

 

It's related to the adapter itself. Change and be free.

 

I'd still have this problem:

I put in my earphones. I play the first song. 1 of 50, it says. It finishes and the next song starts. 2 of 50. The first song I played no longer meets the criteria as defined in iTunes for MINI1, yet the song remains in the iPod as part of that Smartplaylist.

Kind of off of the hardware now, I guess, but I'd sure like to skin that cat, too.

 

In iTunes 5 and later, this was paid attention to. Go to Edit>Preferences>Playback>Smart Shuffle and control your settings there.

More info here: http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=304711

 

I have a SmartPlaylist of the 50 least recently played songs that I have rated 5 stars. If I put the iPod in shuffle mode, it will play all 50 songs in a random order, each song exactly once. Once I interrupt the playing of that playlist, by syncing or playing something else, the next time I go back to that playlist, it chooses the current 50 least recently played, and I can go through that set of 50. The point is, just because the individual songs don't drop out of the playlist as I play them, that does not mean they will repeat in shuffle mode. I don't believe the shuffling is randomly choosing the next song to play as it gets to the end of each song, choosing from the pool of all songs in the playlist. I think it is an ordering that is applied to the whole playlist, and that ordering is fixed until the next time the playlist changes.

Try this. With your iPod in shuffle mode, start playing the playlist. If there are x songs, you'll get 1 of x. Click the wheel to skip to the next song, 2 of x. Sure, skipping the song does not mark it as played, but the point is, you can go through all x songs, and you shouldn't see any repeated. The order has been chosen for the whole, current, list. If you play a few songs all the way through, to mark them as played, then switch and play something from another playlist, or a podcast, or whatever, then go back to this playlist, there should be fewer songs that have not been played in the last 5 days, and you'll have a new value for x. If you are still in shuffle mode, you'll get a new ordering for that set of songs.

I would expect my 'least recently played' should work similarly to your 'not played in 5 days', but if I get a chance, I'll set up a list like yours and see.

 

Yeah, I go that. It's how Apple lets people how they want to define what randm is.

It doesn't impact my ability to hear random AND non-repeating playlists.

 

That's just it -- without synching, my x remains the same value. Those X number of songs remain as on that playlist.

Imagine the playlist is Rating is 5 Stars and Last Played is not in the last 3 days. I synch my iPod, and it has 50 songs in that playlist.

I walk out the door and start a month long business trip -- no synching. On the flight over, I play them through, 1 through 50 (shuffle, no shuffle -- doesn't matter). They should drop from that playlist -- their last played date is less than 5 days. But they stay on the playlist, I think, because the iPod hasn't synched.

You use to not have to synch, to have a Smart playlist computer what songs on the iPod should be on what playlists on the iPod, but Apple changed that with, I think, iTunes 4.6

And yes, I understand that if I play all 50 through, even on shuffle, they will not repeat. But if I power off the Mini radio, well, I'm screwed, because it is going to re-assess the random order for those 50. Who's going to drive and hear all 50 songs without having to power off to, say, refuel or hit the head? I want to be able to synch less often and still hear random, non-repeating music that obey the Boolean logic loaded / created in iTunes.

Might be a pipe dream, though.

 

Wow, this is all more in depth then I've ever thought about the iPod and music playback. Best of luck to you in having it do what you want - guess it is lucky that I'm happy with the basic randon playing of the library and simply hitting the forward button on the steering wheel if I want to skip a song or two

 

Using the least recently played option, the list does change for me, even without syncing. So, maybe there is some difference between least recently played and not played in the last x days. Seems the iPod should be able to evaluate either, since they both use the last time played value.

Would least recently played work for you, instead of not played in last x days?

With the DICE interface, powering off the car does not make the iPod forget where it is in the playlist, I guess for the reasons already mentioned earlier in the post.

 

I too have learned much from this thread! Enough that I believe I understand your issue correctly as well as the answer to your query- Which is "you can't":

There is no "Smart Playlist" activity on the iPod. While smart playlist settings will match whatever iTunes has "at the time of synching", the iPod is essentially a read-only device. Other than the "On-the-go" playlist, we cannot edit any information on the iPod, via the iPod. Which is why we can't conceive using it as a PDA. Believe me- I tried.

As an iPod addict i've have at least one of each generation and I don't recall any version of the iPod OS which did otherwise- I surmise that you have uncovered another deficiency in the iPod OS! Of course, I could be wrong- which is why I've been watching this thread since its inception.

An extra thanks to "tom @ eas" who has provided an expert view at how the iPod and iPod adapter work with the MINI.

Best of luck.

 

Yeah, the kicker is, I wouldn't even be giving this thought if this wasn't how the iPod use to work. It was what showed me just how cool smart playlists could be! In fact, when version 4.7 came out, my brother updated the software before I did and pointed out that the capability had gone away -- and I held out for months on updating the software. They added podcast support, but dropped this. Tough call on if it was worth it.

I went down to the Basement of Doom & Gloom and re-tooled and re-synched my iPod / iTunes, after building a few configurations of the "least played" option.

As an example, I built one in iTunes that said: Rating greater than 3, not played in last 5 days, limit to 10 songs based on least often played. I synched the iPod, plugged in headphones, and let it run for a while. When I came back, it was on somethng like 7 of 10. I took a minute to scroll through the 7 songs, to see which ones they were. I then played a different playlist. I then went back to my original one. 10 songs there, same 10 songs there. I could resume at 7 (yes, in the same shuffle order) but the 7 I had played, which not longer met the Boolean conditions I made it iTunes, were still there.

My money is on this being a deliberate decision by Apple. Really, if I can an 80GB iPod and 70 GB of music, I'd load all of my music, build some of these interlinked smart playlists, and not synch other than when I needed to add new music -- which would be rare. Which would keep me away from iTunes, and a chance for Apple to sell me DRM-crippled songs. I can't see any reason why the hardware would not be able to do these on-the-fly Boolean computations for the songs already loaded onto the iPod -- it use to. Must be a "design feature," as I see it. Too bad.

Random and non-repeating -- seems like such a simple goal.

More to follow, I guess. Oh, and I passed the frau the link for the DICE, and offered it up as an Xmas girft idea. Otherwise, I told her, I'd buy it after the holidays. By then I should be able to find a large enough rock under which I can crush this BMW / Mini iPod adapter abomination....