I've seen both suggested here and would like to know which is best for combination family car/auto-x car.

'02 MCS. OEM suspension with Helix camber plates(just installed). 22mm rear sway set on softest of 2 settings.

 

Thought this was the Hokey Pokey thread, my bad

 

Toe out will increase intial turn-in grip. Toe-out will also cause the tires to 'drag' along straight roads. Toe-out will hurt braking - I know you know all this obehave. Toe out will help to alleviate the gyroscopic nature of big negative camber angles; once beyond about 1.75 neg degrees for the Mini, camber thrust and the gyroscopic characteristic become apparent. The gyroscopic characteristic manifests when the wheel hits a bump; it feels like a quick shimmy in the steering. Toe out tends to straighten the wheel a bit to offset this. Camber thrust occurs when one - non vertical - wheel hits a bump and the force causes a sideways thrust instead of a mostly vertical motion.

My Mini was set with 2 degrees negative camber and 1/64" toe in; I drive a lot of straight highway miles and the combo of toe out and neg camber will chew up tires. I experimented recently with 1 degree neg and 1.5 degree neg and steering feel while driving on the highway was much improved , especially at 1 degree neg. Curiosly, I percieved no change in the steering effort, nervousness or better intial grip upon turn-in when going from 2 degrees neg to 1 degree neg camber- toe will move from toe-in to toe-out with the adjustments I made. The difference in grip between 1 and 2 degrees neg is extremely noticable. The Megans were set on adjustment 13 for this test - fairly soft against 32 as the stiffest.

I'll leave the camber at 1.5 or a hair less for daily driving and move it back to 2 for track work. I do not know why toe changes did not materialize into something either good or bad, but I'm wondering if the Powerflex bushings have something to do with this...still thinking...

Hope this helps.

 

i have too much toe-out dialed in my walk.

my wife has toe-in but she still wanders around too much while at the Mall.
not sure what the heck's going on with that...

 

I to have powerfelx bushing up front and IE fixed cmaber plates up front and IE (Ireland Engineering) lower arms and control arm insetrs in the rear. This combination moves around a lot less than the facory bushings. I am running zero toe front a rear - with just a tiney favor towards neg tow. So my static tow is like -1/32 in front an -1/16 in rear. With this "static" algiment - (all they can measure at a shop) your will get some tiney amount of toe in in front under power (the power will pull the tires in). Under braking you will get significant toe out at both ends - this is great for turn in - but can be sqwirly on the track or street. I would recoemnd about 1/16 in at both ends for street - if the car wanders to much for your taste on the highway then go with -1/8 in front.
Wes

 

I went from 1/16 in (set from the factory) to 3/32 out for my last auto-x. Even though I was running 205's vice 215's I had much less understeer on turn in. I don't have my camber plates yet so that's my only adjustment. By the way, it was a rain race so I don't have a dry race to compare yet.
See you at Pungo tomorrow,
Russ

 

I'd leave the camber at Auto-X levels and change only the toe because it's simple enough to count full turns when adjusting them at an event--so you could even set them back for the drive home. Toe-out on the highway gets tiresome really fast, but the quicker turn-in is marvelous.

Adjusting front camber to more negative automatically adds toe-in which is such a hassle to set right each time that I'd rather just run lots of camber all of the time and replace the tires more frequently.

 

I run -2.5 with 1/8 out front, -1.9 with no toe back. My car turns in amazingly well at autocrossing and on the street. The drawback is that highway driving is like trying to walk a straight line on tip-toes. When I really get into the power of the Turbokomressor there's a "Holy Sh*t!!" factor in keeping the beast in a straight line as I unload the front wheels.

If I was looking for a compromise I'd go 0 toe front and back.

 

Dead on. The reasoning behind the settings was what I really needed a grasp on.
Just finished reading Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams and still need help

Good book for those interested. Not enough reference to FWD though.

Check me on this if you would. The more negative I go with camber the more toe in I pick up. Is that right? This is due to the steering arms being behind the knuckle, correct?

TIA

 

like you're gonna feel 1/64" toe-in. grab a burger and you're at 1/128"... a completely
different setting.

 

yes with a rear steer car the more you move the top of the shocks in .. it pushes out on the steering turn buckles making more TOE IN. If it was a Front steer car then it would be TOE OUT.

BTW just got the camber plates for mine.. and reset them.. currently running 1.75 neg camber with 1.5 neg caster and 0 toe. Works good on the street and cloverleafs . will most likely be running it tomorrow at the autox.

oh and for those wondering a Front steer car is when the steering Knuckle is infront of the axle.. and a Rear steer car is where the Knuckle is behind the axle. Alot of Race teams perfer a Front steer car due to if kissing the wall and bending a steering rod it will cause the car to naturall drift away from the wall, while a Rear steer will want to drift into the wall. Beside that a placement of the steering box , rack an other things for weight.. there really isnt much of a difference

 

When I removed the cob webs from my brain a while back...I think that there might be another reason; negative camber in many instances is a great partner to toe out. so adjusting camber has a more natural affect on toe from a racer's standpoint.

 

Sounds like -1.5 and 1/8th out are me best compromise.

Sound good?

 

That sounds like a good compromise for street and autocross use. On my H Stock Cooper, I can't get any more than about -.5° camber in front, but I am running 1/8" toe out in front and 1/32" toe out in back, and it really didn't make the car any more difficult to drive on the street on a daily basis (compared to the toe in it came with from the factory). My wife drives it every day and hasn't noticed any difference, but it has definitely helped me on the autocross course. You will get slightly increased tire wear from the toe out, but it shouldn't be too bad. I've run as much as 1/4" toe out on other cars in the past (they didn't see much street driving though).

-Keith

 

Thanks everybody