I would like an asessment of the trade offs (benefits per buck)for the various mods allowed in H-stock by some experienced, knowledgeable autocrossers. I have recently ventured into the autocross world (something I never anticipated when ordering my MINI 18 months ago). I have a 2005 MC with premium and sport packages. I have participated in 3 events to dateand the only mods I made were to pump up the front tires to 45 psi and remove the tool kit. After reading all the posts I could find (at least twice) on the subject, I have purchased a set of 15" R81 wheels to use for auto-x instead of eating up the expensive Goodyear run flats on the heavy R 83 wheels.
That is where I am starting from. Plan to get a set of 205/50-15 Falken Azenis or Hankook Ventus Z212s but even though they will be dedicated track tires I can't justify paying double (approximately) the price to get Hoosier A6's or Kumho V710's. That may be worth it for an experienced driver who is looking for tenths of a second but not for a novice like me who is looking for 10 seconds. I realize that seat time is the best (and most fun) mod but the other questions persist. So if an experienced driver could comment on how much difference other mods such as ss+ springs and swaybar, new shocks in the rear(Koni sports?), wheel alignment, etc. would make it would be appreciated.
Ben

 

i;d have to say reduce your tire pressures. 45 lbs sounds way to high to me. maybe try like low to mid 30's on the front and 1-2 lbs higher in the rear.

 

In H-stock you can not do anything unless it specifically says that you can. Or something like that.

You can only change the front anti-sway bar not the rear. You can not change the springs unless that are a factory installed items (dealer installed items do not count). Shocks are open items as long as they are not adjustable coil-overs.

Wheel alignment is only allowed in the amounts that can be achieved without adding or removing any pieces of the suspension. Control arms can not be changed for anything other than stock items.

You were definitely going in the right direction when you mentioned the largest improvment can be made by adjusting the nut behind the wheel.

P.S. You can not even change the shift **** to anything other than a stock item.

 

Ben, you said it yourself: "Seat Time"

Say that again 3 times for me, please!

Good idea to go to Falkens (or whatever), and get your time on them. They actually make decent daily driver tires too, and work as decent rain-tires on a rainy autocross day. Consider a Schroth harness as a perk to yourself, or maybe buy your own helmet.

For the most part, as a novice, any other mods will not make you "better". Your priority right now is to adjust that "nut' behind the wheel! (as previously well said, too)

Oh, can you please say "Seat Time" again....

 

Look to see if there is an Evolution School being held in your area this year, or perhaps next. They run about $200 but is the best money you can spend for seat time and instruction at AutoX. I liked it so much I have done it twice now. 50-60 runs on your own with instruction from national champion drivers really helps bring down those times.

 

I'd say the Falkens or Hankooks are the best money you can spend on parts at this point. You are already WAY ahead of the game by realizing that seat time and instruction are the areas that will really help.

As far as what stock-allowed mods are good, it is really car dependant, but my estimate for the HS Mini would be that the order from "Best bang for the buck to worst" would go like:

Tires
alignment
lighter wheels
SS+ upgrade
shocks
exhaust (think of this as a weight reduction, not a power adder)
"expensive" engine fluids
air filter

But this mostly just opinion. Other people would probably produce variations on this list - and probably more accurate variations I don't think that anyone (in their right mind) would put anything other than "tires" on the top of that list, though So I think I got 1 right...

This is not good advice. 45psi is a good starting point for your front tire pressures. Unless you like driving on your sidewalls instead of the tread, then go ahead and run 30psi

Edit, by the way impulse, if you have seen this: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/new...5-mini-cooper/ Then go read that. There is a TON of great info there, and Per posts on NAM once in a while.

 

Buy some Kumhos eventually! Once you have some runs under your belt, you'll need/want them.

BTW, my Hoosiers were always pumped up to 50-53.

 

I wrote a rather long comment on ya'lls replys but apparently I hit 'preview post' instead of 'submit' and then logged off. I reckon it is lost in cyberspace. Don't know if there is any way to retreive it so I'll try again tomorrow.
Ben

 

R comps are worth a couple seconds on a 60 second course. Even at twice the money V710's are the way to go.

The next best ting you could do is get a good alignment.
Front toe out 1/16 each side and rear toe set at 0 to 1/16 total toe out. This will help the car with turn in and rotation.

If you have the cash to spend Koni Sports are nice addition, I drove 2 years before I got them. Set them full firm in the rear and soft up front.

For now I would leave the rest of the suspension alone.

 

Let me try this again. These long posts are laborious and time consuming for me since I use the 'two finger hunt and peck' typing method. Most everybody put tires and wheels at the top of the list I see. That has been taken care of. Bilbo-Baggins, Satay- Ayam and JustGo4It all recommended wheel alignment. I think that I will leave that at the factory settings until I find out more about it. How does changing the toe in/out and camber(only adjustable in the rear I hear) to values for use when autocrossing affect handling and tire wear on the street? I guess I lied to ya'll about the only mods I had made to date in my first post. S-A's mention of 'expensive engine fluids' reminded me that I had swapped out my brake fluid for better stuff for a Phil Wicks MINI Driving School at Sebring in April. That was a blast too but a whole 'nother animal from autocross. Their basic recommended mods were Brake fluid, brake pads, tires and braided steel brake lines in that order. NoWin mentioned a harness. I won't go to that expense till I'm pushing things hard enough that I need it. I did get a CG-Lock and used it the last event. It seemed to work pretty well. Eric1855 mentioned Evo school and I would go to one tomorrow if there were one nearby. Didn't see any scheduled for FL this year on their website. I emailed Jean Kinser and she replied that there would be some down here( Ft. Pierce and Ft Meyers) in late summer and Sept/Oct. Recommended tire pressures seem to be all over the place. I guess that is a function of how you want the car to handle. I ran initial pressures of 45 front and 35 rear each time and did no adjustment during the day. Last event was run in ~92 degree weather. Should you adjust if able? I have seen that some run 40-45 front and 50-55 rear. Danielg was yours 50-53 all around? Yes S-A, I have been to the Grassrootsmotorsports website. Good stuff. By the way, Per and Kim Schroeder are the ones laying that 10 seconds on me right now. If I can get that down to a 5 second differential I will be as happy as a pig in slop. Invited my son to go with me last Sunday (he's 27) and to show his gratitude he beat me by about a second ,IN MY CAR I don't aspire to be King-of-the-hill or to collect dust catchers, But I would like to get better. Really appreciate all the comments and advice.
Ben
Now if I can just hit the right button..........

 

You have a great reference in your back yard. Use it. Talk to Per. At length.

Oh, and braided steel brake lines are Not legal in Stock Class

 

I have found that I'm more like 5-7 seconds faster on a 60 second course with R-compounds. Nothing you can bolt onto your car will ever make such a difference. All stock class mods combined won't cut your times like a set of R's. AND YOU WILL GET FASTER SOONER BY GOING TO R COMPOUND TIRES NOW. Your car will handle so differently with R's that everything you learn on those street tires will have to be changed.

As far as the driver, seek out a region near you that allows riders at their autoX's. Find their resident fast drivers and start bumming rides, getting them to ride with you, and asking questions. Turn every autocross into a school. Pretty soon people will be asking you how you got so fast.

One last thing, it pays to arrive early and stay late. Help set up the course and take it down. It gives you a chance to listen in on what the experienced drivers are talking about before and after a race. After awhile you'll be able to walk a course and say, "That's going to be a problem" and be able to make a plan to deal with it.

As far as bang for the buck mods? TIRES! TIRES!! TIRES!!! TIRES!!!!

 

Hi Ben,

As I mentioned last Sunday, real R-compound tires would give you the best bang for the buck for modifying the car's performance, but as far as car+driver performance, as others have mentioned, seat time is where it's at. You need to get a better handle on what your car can do even as it sits. I'll throw an instructor magnet on your car at the next DeLand event and take you for a ride, if you want.

While you're getting that seat time with more events, drivers schools and the like, a set of street touring tires should give you a better performance feel and higher levels of grip...while lasting through all of the mistakes that come from learning. Last year, when we first got our MINI, I threw some Falken RT-615s on the stock holeys so that Kim could get her last few points in STX (yes it was STS, but could run in STX to get points) and I ran in HS for that event. Kim got her points, and I got top index overall, even without R-compounds. So....the MINI is pretty potent, even without the really sticky tires.

Our testing has shown that R-compounds are only worth 1.5 or so against the current crop of ST tires. Even the best to worst R-compounds are less than a second apart on average....but this is a game of tenths, 100ths and 1000ths, not seconds.

You should probably pick up the print version of the April 06 issue of Grassroots, it's got all of our alignment specs, tire pressures, etc. The August issue has a comparison of the new Hoosier against the Kumho on the MINI and some MINI H Stock horsepower testing.

Per (wishing I was at Peru this past weekend...see you all in Milwaukee!)

 

It's great to hear that you are so interested in Auto-X and want to do better.

Starting from the top-
Tires and wheels- The stock holey rims are a good place to start. The 5 spoke 16x6.5" rim is also workable using 215/40-16 Kumho V710 tires.
One of our region's H-stock MC drivers uses 205/50-15 Avon Tech R compounds- this is more durable than the V710 but not as fast. Falken or Ventis tires are also a good option but definitely not as fast as R-compounds. Personally I think going with the R-compounds AND learning how to drive with them is the best way to getting faster. Realize that driving well with R-compounds is not like driving with street tires. A common novice mistake is to be too rough on the R-compounds and wear them out quickly- be easy on the tires and drive smoothly- make them last.

Wheel alignment-Keeping the stock alignment is a disadvantage. It is within rules to do an alignment that is more performance oriented. Another advantage is that many owners don't check their alignment and assume that since they aren't having many problems doing street driving, their alignment is ok. However sometimes toe settings can be jarred out of specs and can be uneven left to right- so doing an alignment once a season is good. Handling and tire wear won't be too badly affected by an autocross type setting- just don't go nuts driving on the street like you're doing autocross all the time. Just drive normal.

Autocross alignment-
Front toe- zero to 1/16" toe out
Front camber- stock settings, about -0.5 degrees
Rear toe- zero
Rear camber- see Grassroots article on the stock MC, doesn't have to be too negative. -1.0 degrees or more positive depending on your driving style.

I drive a stock Maxima with autocross alignment of zero toe front and back and tire wear and handling is fine after 2 years.

Other mods- No changing Brake lines. Fine to change brake fluid, brake pads, synthetic oil brand, etc. No brake stiffeners allowed either.

You can save a "new" air filter for auto-X use only. You can upgrade to any cat-back exhaust- no rush. If you like a more moderate exhaust note check out the Milltek for the MC, if you like a bit more loudness then check out the Helix13 exhaust.

Harness vs CG lock- The CG lock you have is very good. You have it so just use it for now. The Schroth harness is more expensive and also works well.

Driving schools- Schools are great. Don't stop there. Teach yourself. Be a student of driving. Get out some good books. Check out a book on Autocrossing by James Watts. Find good drivers in your area and get them to drive your car- check out the times they can get and that is what you can strive for in the future. Remember if they can drive that fast then your car is not holding you back.

Tire pressures-Opinions vary because drivers skills vary. Best approach is to focus on your driving style and measure your tire temperatures (with a tire pyrometer) and tire wear (chalk your tires). You may need to adjust your pressures during the event if you tires heat up quite a bit, you can't assume that you can leave them alone from run to run. Check temperatures right after a run, check tire pressures right before the next run. Use water spray if needed to cool off tires that heat up too much.

Driver is King- That's wonderful that your son drove your MINI and that you are both enjoying it. Give yourself some goals in doing better by concentrating on staying calm and driving smoother (not trying to drive faster). As you practice (in fun runs, with other driving instructors, and with your son) keep working on small things- have definite skills to work on, maybe try new things on different portions of the course.

Things to do at Auto-X (good for any class of driver).
Walk the course (2 or 3 times before driving it)- walk with an experienced driver- discuss strategy- study the correct lines.
Volunteer to be on the course set up crew- you'd learn alot about driving the course from studying how to set up the course- understand why the course is set up the way it is and where the fast and slow spots are.
Respect the slow tight parts of the course- enter the tight turns slow and exit fast.
Find the fast parts of the course- really exploit the fast areas and go for it.
Give yourself time to improve, don't be disappointed with plateaus or slow gains, and have fun everytime out.

 

I sincerely appreciate everyones comments, advice and sharing of your knowledge with me. Thanks much for the time and effort. I generally approach things in a conservative manner, it must be the engineer mentality. Also I'm a tightwad. Put those two traits together and you will see why I didn't spring for a set of R compounds. I also that until I learn to drive better I would probably just chew them up. It has only been two weeks ago that I convinced myself that if I was going to get into this that it made sense (performancewise and $$wise) to get a dedicated set of rims and tires for autocross. So I got a used set of 15" wheels and had a set of 205/50-15 Hankook Rs2 Z212 tires mounted on them today. Saving my 195/55-16 runflats for the street.
Per...thanks for your offer to take me for a ride...that would be great.. I wanted to get an instructor for a run for myself and my son at the last meet but a friend had checked the board and told us we were working first heat and driving third heat. ..but he had reversed his schedule and ours ..so we got to the line a little late and hurried..then with switching drivers and ID numbers etc. between runs it slipped my mind... also forgot to switch off the DSC until the last run .. saved us each 3 to 4 seconds. I emailed GRM about the April issue earlier. My subscription started with the June issue.
Minihune... thanks for your extensive set of recommendations..I have printed it out so I can study and refer to it. Sounds like the next thing to consider is an alignment. I will have to inquire around to find a reliable shop to do it. I would like to find one that knew MINIs. My options are few near where I live. I picked up a nail in one run flat about a month ago and took it around to five different shops before I found one that claimed to be certified on run flats. They patched it for $26 but scratched up my wheel. This thing is getting long again.
Ben...
now where is that right button? Oh!.. there it is on the left