I'm slowly but surely getting into the HPDE scene and loving it very much. I'd like a set of dedicated track rims with tires, but I do not want r-comp. at this point since the people I trust say that it will retard my actual learning curve and make me think I'm better than I actually am on the track. I'd like to spend the next year or so on high performance street tires for the track to learn how to best control the car. So, what are the best options? Here's what my research has yielded; let me know what you think:

Falken Azenis
Goodyear f1's
Pole positions (s03's)

Thanks!

mb

 

You should also considerToyo RA-1s

 

Think about what you posted: Sounds a bit odd doesn't it?... dedicated TRACK tires, but not wanting R-compound? Sort of like wanting to have sex by only reading Playboy You sort of miss out on the whole experience!

How about a set of Kumho Victoracers, or 710's? Stickier than the Falkens, and less costly than Hoosiers, but I suppose the Azenis would be a fair cost/performance tire.

I say: "In for a penny, in for a pound!"

 

Last year, I used the Goodyear F1 GS D3 for eveerything - daily driving, autocross, and HPDE. They were good, but the amount of void in the tread (the spaces between the tread blocks) causes some ugly looking tread wear. They did make it through the whole season, though.

I used the Bridgestone S03 street only before I got into this sports car thing. They have more ultimate grip than the Goodyears, but they are more expensive, and I don't think the performance difference justifies the price difference.

I've only got one HPDE and one autocross on my Azenis so far, so I cannot comment on them much yet. But the price is right! And they're non-directional, so you can swap them from the right side to the left side to even out wear.

If you can live with the sneers, going to 15" wheels for the track is a good idea price wise. The spec miata series tire is the RA1 in 205/50-15 which is a MINI friendly size (a bit on the short side, but not that bad)... and since they sell tons of them for spec miata, the price on that size is really good. I now find myself wishing I had gone with 15" wheels instead of 16" wheels for that very reason.

 

Maybe you could just run on a set of high performance all season tires or something. I can see how racing on a non R compound tire will help you learn. You'll learn where and when the car is going to slide and you'll learn how to correct it. Maybe running on a set of Z rated summer tires will do the trick. For the first 2-3 years of autox's I races on my street summer tires usually W or Z rated. Then I switched to a set of Yokohama 008's. It was nice to feel the difference in brakeing and turn-in I had with the race compound.

Good luck with your search

 

What about the new Hankook Z212?

 

I also recommend the Hankooks. I agree that for instruction and 'lap days' at the track, there is no need to go to the expense of R tires. R's are for getting your best lap times on DOT legal tires. When you aren't in competition, you just want a tire that has good longevity and heat resistance, breakaway characteristics, and reasonable rain performance.

 

I've been using the Azinis for the last 3 years - and just picked up a new set of 615's this year.
They were cheaper than R-Compunds and i could drive to events with them on the car and leave them on for around town Fun.

I guess the Falkens are good BUT after driving a car with Hoosiers i know the Falkens Dont stick that good at all... ( but that's not comparing apples to apples )

The advantage to the Falkes is that over the time that i have had them, i have learned to feel what the car is doing and the falken *seem* to be very gradual in the way they break loose from the surface so if you are progressive in your actions you will get excellent feed back on where you stand and when the car starts to drift ( Slide / Understeer / Oversteer ) .

I had considered getting the - Goodyear f1's or the BF - KDW's for a replacement street tire but haven't driven on them so can't comment.

 

Thanks for all of the responses. I can definitely deal with the sneers for going to a 15in. wheel/tire combo, but I worry about future desires to make the brakes bigger. Although I'm sure stock sized powerslots with track pads would do the trick.

I have the Goodyear f1's on now and used them last weekend. It sounds like the azenis is best for my budget, but I will check out the RA-1's and the hankooks as well.

mb

 

When i change to the 205-50-15 it drops the car about an 1" and the change in diameter of the tire *seems* to make a big difference in accelaration ( lower final drive because of the smaller tire)

 

Be wary of this advice, mbcoops. R-comps break away much more rapidly than even a really soft street tire- the car's harder to catch and you're going faster- as a result of the stickier tire- when it goes. Not a great combo for a novice. You're going about it the right way by staying in your comfort zone. Plus, a slick like the 710 will require a set of rains, doubling your wheel and tire expense.

I really like the Azenis. The 615's channel water much better than the original 215's and are great right out of the box. Also look into the BFG KD. Both are relatively inexpensive, can be driven to/from the track, and will provide a good level of grip at the track (more than any z-rated "summer performance" tire)- either wet or dry.

Regarding rims, pay close attention to weight. You'll notice a significant improvement in acceleration and braking with a lighter rim. Also, you can use a smaller diameter rim/tire combo to gain a mechanical advantage.

Brock

 

Use this page to compare tire sizes / wheel sizes:
http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

You can use the radius numbers to figure out how much ride height you'll lose, and it will tell you how far off the speedo will be as a percentage, along with a bunch of other numbers.

It won't tell you if the tire will rub or not. :D

 

This is a little bit of 'old school' thinking IMHO.
The RA-1s are in fact R compound tires. I feel that they are the best choice for someone who is committed to doing a good amount of HPDEs. They don't break away as sudden as Brock is warning they will. They still give audible notice that they are on the edge. It's more tires like the Hoosiers that can be a sudden as they are almost in reality molded slicks.

The Toyo RA-1 is a fantastic track tire. Many get them shaved, but many use them on the street also so they go full tread. They will actually last longer then street tires as street compound tends to heat cycle out rather fast. You can get a few years outa RA1s where as the street compound, if tracked often, will become hard within a year, usually over the winter after a summer season of tracking. A one year old track street compound is scary on damp tracks.
The RA-1s will wear down faster, but in the dry they are bi-directional, so if you are running a good amount of camber they can be switched around.

I vote for the full tread RA1. It's a safer track tire in dry and mostly in wet.

 

onasled,

I agree about the RA1s, my choice for my track wheels, but I have seen a set of brand new RA1s, installed at the track, full depth, cord in less than 2 days at the Streets at Willow Springs, where people that had their's shaved had no problems after several track days.

Bill

 

im kinda near your ball park... spirited street, but no track time for me.

S03's and GS-D3's are my choice.

 

I just picked up Yokohama Parada Spec II from tirerack for like $89 a tire. Pretty sticky and something like 220 tread ware. I'll be doing all my daily driving on them and some weekend autox's and maybe a track even or 2.

 

Thanks for all of the varying opinions. Sounds like for budget and a sound learning curve, I might pick up some lightweight 15's and tires for my track duty. When it comes time that I will actually benefit from better brakes, I can do so within the stock size, correct?

mb

 

RA-1 are a phenomenal tire. I run a 225/50/15 on +37mm offset OZ Superleggera. I had them on my old '02 MCS with a stock suspension and they are now on my '05 with H-Sports, Camber Plates, & Rear Control Links. I find them pretty predictable at the limit and they last forever. The 15" wheel really gives you an advantage on acceleration plus you can run a nice wide tire. I tried the Hankook R-Compounds but they didn't last like the RA1s. Once you go R, you'll never go back. On the street I recently switched to 16" OZ Ultraleggeras with 205/50/16 Goodyear F1 GS-3 and love them. What an amazing street tire.

cheers

Amit

oh, also Willwood makes a BBK that fits in 15" wheels

 

I think 15s are a very good track choice. Only problem is a BBK. Yes, Wilwood makes a kit for them, but then it's really not much of a track brake. Smaller calipers equal less heat displacement and smaller calipers which equals brake fade. Lighter weight though, so this combo would be real quick. Steve, who drives a red and black Madness sponsored D-Mod racer uses 15s and seems to do OK with those Wilwood brakes. He also gets a much bigger selection of race slicks in 15, whereas you get very little in what I use, 17s.

 

I've done some research on that 15in. bbk and it doesn't seem like an option for me right now for a car that's a 23,000 mile/year daily driver.

onasled - I've read your review of the wilwood bbk and how much you love it. I'm a beginner who will probably be looking to upgrade maybe this time next year after I get some more track time under my belt. Assuming I actually use my time spent and learn a thing or two, will the stock sized powerslots with more agressive pads serve me well enough on the track?

Now to choose some 15inch wheels. I like the 5zigen fnr0r-c.

mb

mb

 

I'll chime in too mbcoops. The RA1s are very predictable and tossable, they continue to give me lots of warning - my experience mimics Onasleds. They also represent a great value against other R-compound tires...thought not as sticky as a Hoosier for example, they'll last much longer - 20-30 heat cycles. Still, I would not use the RA1s as a daily tire, even for short commutes.

I have the Wilwood 12.2 kit on my car with 17" wheels and 205/40/17 RA1s.

You can opt for the 11.75 kit...I beleive most 15" wheels work, with this kit. You'll need to confirm with Todd, however.

mbcoops, if we end up at LRP together one day soon, you can go off track and drive my car to get a feel for the brakes and tires.

 

I'm currently running ebc slotted & nippled rotors, stainless lines, tyrolsport caliper stiffners, and Hawk pads. Overall the braking distances is the same as stock, the difference is that the brakes will last consistantly the entire day with not much fade. At first I was disappointed with the upgrade but by the end of the day after going through two tanks of gas I was extremely impressed. I think I may try a different pad next time. The Hawks don't have a very good initial bite that leaves for a slightly mush feeling plus they take forever to heat up.

Amit

 

Who's run 16" RA1s, and at what size?

205/55R16 or 225/50R16. I'm guessing the 225 isn't worth the effort and potential rubbing... especially on my little underpowered car

 

If you are just doing HPDE these comments may not apply. If you plan to do any time trials, read on.

I participate in Time Attack /Auto Cross with a local club. Any tire with a wear rating under 140, puts the car into a "non stock" category. A non stock car has to have a harness. At our last event, Tech inspection sent a car back to the paddock to take his "Autocross tires" off the car so he could compete in a stock class. He was not happy, but he got to compete in a stock class.

I use a "high performance" street tire, Kumho 712's. In "parking lot autocross" I get my but kicked by the guys on R compound tires. On the high speed autocross, they scream when they start to let go and do so gradually.

John

 

Azenis.