Seriously, other then pulleys and quick HP add ons has anyone seen a modified Cooper that has run faster then the fastest "stock" Coopers?

I know some of us have played around with a few things outside of what is allowed in "Stock" class but I'm wondering if they're really making the car "faster". I ran an event yesterday in STS and was able to get within a second of some pretty fast STS cars in what was mostly a "stock" car on Azenis 615's(205/40/16's) with stock size Rotas.

I'm wondering if springs,sway bar and a camber kit will get me some additional time or if I'm just wasting my time.

Thanks in advance.....

Stuart

 

Hi Stuart, I was wondering much the same thing. The trick will be to fix the MINIs problems without adding new ones.

MINI Strengths:
stupid quick in transitions
benign

Weaknesses:
slow
could stand to lose some weight
needs front camber


My suggestion would be to start with a "cheater" H Stock set-up and go from there.

All HStock legal mods plus:
STS legal/wide wheel/tire combo.
bolt-in camber plates
ECU reflash (10+hp!)
larger rear bar.
smaller battery (25 pound loss, no real downside)

If you're consistently 1 second behind the top STS guys with an HS car on street tires, I think you've got a chance. Try to keep the car from being too loose..one nice thing about a MINI is that it's really easy to go fast through transitions, just throw the wheel from side to side and you KNOW the rear is going to hang on. Don't lose that (if that means going with a less than gigantic rear bar, or dialing in a little camber or toe in to the rear, do so)

sounds like fun.

Per

 

Yeah, it's kind of fun to play around with the STS guys. Local HS competition has been pretty boring the past couple years so I'm looking for a new challenge. My problem is that the MINI feels so good, transitions so quick, that I have a hard time believing it's going to get much better.

I've had a set of H-Sports springs in my garage for the past few months and I'm having a hard time convincing myself they're going to help the car. In fact, unless I go with camber plates and adjustable control arms I'm guessing it might be a backward step....

The rear bar seems like a logical choice but I've currently got a H Sport comp bar on the front of my car that I really like. My theory is that if I am going to put a larger rear bar on why don't I just put the adjustable 19mm bar I have sitting in my garage on the front of the car. Wouldn't that be the same effect with possibly less wheel spin?

The battery is a no brainer, I just need to pick up one of those and drop it in.....I also have a deal working on some Konig Rewinds and I think the 15x7 40mm offset will give me some additional track and width that should help. The 205/40/16 Azenis mounted on my Rotas are just over 30lbs and I'm guessing the Rewinds with 205/50's will be heavier......:impatient

Questions, questions, questions........

Stuart

 

Yea, you'll notice that I didn't mention springs...not sure they'd really help all that much. Less travel = more bumpstop time = less grip

The rear bar will keep the inside front wheel down much more than going to a smaller front bar. You can also back off the rear tire pressures if the rear is too loose.

I dunno, I'd think your 205/40R16s would be a better choice for tires...just get some 16x7.5 Koseis and you're done. Or choose from a plethora of 16x7s.

Per

 

You make a good point about the rear bar.....Maybe I'll make that my next project since everyone seems to rave about them. Any recommendations on bar choice? I like the idea of going with the H Sport Comp bar to match the front but am afraid it might be too much. The RSpeed bar looks nice but is heavy......

Stuart

Not sure I'm going to be able to sell many more projects to my wife. Maybe if I get the 911SC out of the garage. Per, you know anyone looking for a good project? It's not really a project car......Actually, it's pretty nice and the price is right.

 

When I was active in 1/10 scale Radio Control Car racing it was often noted that the Best drivers in Stock class would turn lap times better than half of the modified class guys.

Extra power and Grip means that misteakes are amplified.

 

Same here, always did better in Stock 1/10th than modified...easier to be consistent over a 4-minute main.

I'd say try the H-sport bar first, you have it already, right? I like their stuff, always seems to just work well.

Per

 

I've been thinking a lot about building my Cooper into an STS car, but like you guys, I'm trying to figure out exactly what you'd stand to gain.

I think the biggest two things are front camber and the big rear swaybar. That should increase corner speed and reduce wheelspin as you exit the corner.

You can get a bit more power in STS trim, but I don't think you'd ever get a competitive power/weight ratio in an STS Cooper What do you guys think?

On the other hand, our region has a popular pax-based street tire class that I'm also thinking about running. HS is pretty baren in our region, although with the new cars coming in, it might be a little more interesting next year. I just want to run against more people locally! And I wouldn't mind driving to the event on my "race rubber" either

 

Sounds like the rear sway bar will be my next mod....I have 3 front sway bars but no rear sway bar so I'll need to do some shopping.

I'm still up in the air as to wether the Cooper can be competitive in STS. Power to weight makes it seems improbable but these cars can be pretty quick. I have the MTH mod and Mini Mania Intake installed. The car feels quick and light especially with the 205/40/16's installed. I haven't driven a spec'd out Civic Si so I'm not sure what I need to gain but it might be fun to get close.

Tires and competition are the main reason I like STS. Like I said in a previous post, HS has been pretty boring locally. Even Nationally the competition was limited. Next year will be interesting with all the new cars entering HS but I'm not sure I want to play the tire game and travel to the big events. I have good competition locally with STS and Kevin McCormick is just up the road in the Sacramento region if I ever feel I need a true baseline.

Stuart

 

I recently purchased a tricked-out MiniS (Blue Thunder mods can be seen at Promini.com, just hit project cars). My wife has a stock Mini S and I hope to compare them next spring at Boise Autocross events (I've never competed in any auto event but bought the above car partially for this purpose).

Anyway, my initial driving of the car (see "Texas to SanLuis Obispo... in the travel forum) makes me think there would be benefits in acceleration, cornering, and transitions that would translate to reduced racing times for the same driver from stock to modded. I do agree, however, that the pilot is the main key. Bode Miller would still beat me handily if we traded GS skis, but I might be slightly faster and he slightly slower.

 

wow...fellow r/c racers. Hey Dr Diff, where have you raced. I am a long time r/c racer myself, mostly 1/10th oval stuff. I am from the Indy area also! We have probably raced together before.

 

I agree. I am not sure on this myself. I have an '03 MCS and the stock shocks and springs (at least on the '03) are pretty good. I am hesitant to drop the Mini any lower (I might end up plowing snow here in South Bend this winter if I go lower) or reduce the suspension travel. Maybe I will wait until I need new shocks and go with a new coil-over set up to keep the suspension travel where it needs to be and cross balance the car.

I did add the H-sport rear bar and highly recommend this as a first mod. The next was H-sport camber plates. These 2 mods helped significantly. I would say the biggest bang for the buck possible with the exception of light wheels and Falken Azenis RT-215's.

The right mods do make your car quicker, but then you generally have faster competition and very well prepped cars (read $$$) when moving into STS of STX.

 

Are those ST legal? On the tireracks website it says they require drilling, is that true? I guess I don't know the ST rules all that well, but I thought they had to be strictly bolt in?

Even if they are ST legal, I'm not so sure I want to drill a hole in my car I like the looks of the H-Sport camber plates, but have been fixated on other brands due to the drilling thing...

-Roger, who doesn't really want a saw or drill anywhere near his mini

 

You can drill. If you're brave enough.

SCCA Solo Rulebook 14.8 C: ......Adjustible camber plates may be installed at the top of the strut and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The drilling of holes in order to perform the installation is permitted......

I might have tried other brands that don't require drilling, however, H-Sport makes a good and durable product. The instructions were easy and they fit as promised. I also got them new and unused for less than half price from someone who lacked the commitment to drill.

Whatever camber plate you use, the MINI benefits greatly from ANY amount of additional negative camber you can give it.

 

So not that I thought that I knew the rules, but now I see that I know them even less than I thought I did Great

 

If in doubt, check the rule book. It is on line for free in PDF at the SCCA national website. I would give you a direct link but my internet skills are sometimes lacking.

 

Well, against everyone's recommendations I installed the H-sport Springs. Wow!!! These puppies are soft compared to my factory SS+ Springs(2003). Really, they lowered my car about 1/2" and make it feel like a Buick....I imagine the major difference is the small bump stop allows for more spring movement but I was really suprised just how soft these feel on the car.

I haven't done much testing with these other then commuting to work but I can say that turn-in is definately slower and I'm not sure how that is going to affect transitions speed. Anyway, I'll keep you posted.

Stuart

 

Here's an update with my latest findings after the first autocross of the season.

*Current Set Up

Rota 16x6.5's with 205/40 Azenis
H Sport Springs
H Sport Comp Sway Bars F&R
Koni Adjustables
Mini Mania Intake
MTH Mod
15lb Battery

I was a 1.5 seconds off of a very, very fast 89 Civic and ended up in 6th place out of 23 vehicles(we had 302 entries *SCCA Members* at our first event:impatient ). While the first place guy was over a half second faster then the second place guy running the same car there's no doubt this thing is built to the maximum allowance of STS and is only used for racing purposes.

That being said, it's a pretty good car to compare how the MINI stacks up at the National level. The course was very fast and flowing and is typically the type of course I do very well on. If anything I thought the course worked to the MINI's advantage because once I was up to speed nothing really slowed me down and I was able to keep my foot to the floor if you know what I mean.

I was actually quite suprised to be soo far behind the Civic. Not that I am superman when it comes to driving but I can hold my own and if I'm 1.5 seconds off the pace I start to wonder if I'm driving the right car.

There's always a few tenths left out on the course and I do not doubt that I could have dropped as much as a .5 second if I did a few things differently but even then I would have been a second off the pace on a 40 second course .

Let me wrap things up by saying I'm not convinced the MINI can compete with the Civic in STS. Yeah, my car isn't totally maxed out and I could probably get a few more tenths out of it with a couple different mods but where the car really hurts is acceleration out of the corners and carrying the extra 300 lbs through the course and I do not see any cures for these problems.

If you want to look at the results for this race it's kind of interesting. We have several good drivers in our region and a wide variety of vehicles.

http://www.sfrscca.org/solo2/Results...und01.html#sts

Cheers,

Stuart

 

I can share my experience... I should start by saying that I have plenty of seat time, although most of it was in my old Porsche 924. I should also mention this is my experience running with my local BMWCCA chapter - IMHO, we have a LOT more fun than I ever had at SCCA events, and I stopped going to those quite awhile ago... The BMWCCA events are longer, faster, and you get more runs! Way more runs if you want to test-and-tune during fun runs after points events...

Running a stock Cooper for the first few autocrosses of the 2004 season (BMWCCA) with nothing but 205/50R15 Azenis and a cat-back (Borla), I was down around 40th fastest in raw times fields of ~60 cars (on average, sometimes up to 80, as few as 50). We have no PAX scoring in our BMWCCA chapter, so I'll only refer to raw times.

Our system works like this - each BMW and MINI is assigned a specific number of base points for their model. Each mod adds points to your base score (e.g. swaybar is +2 (each, so +4 for both front/rear), intake is +1 (unshielded, like the HAI) or +3 for shielded (Promini, aFe, etc.), MTH or other software is +3, pulley for MCS is +3 and so on). Since the MCS comes from the factory with a supercharger, that's already included in the base points. Non-BMW marques are classed by displacement and forced induction (e.g. forced induction adds a 1.5x multiplier to your displacement).

So, I began in B class and had 10 available mod points. Street tires are street tires (so obviously, running Azenis or the like makes sense) and r-compounds add +10 points.

I added a rear swaybar (H&R 19mm, set on full stiff)... I moved up 5 places in the overall raw times. I added MTH software, H&R springs and a Promini intake. I moved up 5 more places in raw times, or about 30th overall (again, in fields of ~60 cars). Adding a CG-Lock and becoming a better driver, I ended up around ~28th overall (raw times) for the remainder of the events in the 2004 season, but won my class handily. In fact, I started beating the times in the class above mine and most of the times inn the class above that...

For the 2005 season, I decided to run in C class... I started off adding nothing but brake enhancements - Cobalt GTS pads, SS lines, Ate Blue, Turner Motorsports caliper stiffening kit. This, and more seat time, ended up putting me around 24-25th fastest, again, in raw times in fields of ~60 cars. I was still winning my class. I added Bilstein SP's before the May event, mostly because the stock dampers seemed overmatched by the H&R springs. The Bilstein SP's didn't improve times much (if any), but sure matched the springs better!

And then, a pesky MCS showed up to ruin my fun... The MCS, stock + some mods like a rear swaybar and springs could stay in C. The driver was very, very good. He and I traded 1st and 2nd for most of the season. I decided to do something radical to solidify 1st place - I yanked the MTH software and intake (saving 7 mod points) and added Ireland Engineering street/race camber plates, KMAC rear camber kit and Michelin Pilot Sport Cups in 225/50R15 (r-comps, baby!). I chose the Michelin PSC's because they are known to have a long life on the VERY rough asphalt surface of our venue and the VERY long courses (1.3-1.5 miles long - with many Solo I elements, but also many slower bits like Solo II). I also did a competition alignment:

-2.2 degrees camber up front
~6 degrees caster
0.25 total toe in front

-1.2 degrees camber in the rear
~0 toe (as close to neutral as I could get, anyway)

The results of adding the camber plates, rear camber kit, r-comps and a competition alignment were nothing short of SPECTACULAR! I picked up 6, yes that's SIX!!! seconds and dominated my class, the class above me (D), all but 1 car (a heavily modded MCS, setup much like mine but with lots of power goodies) in E, and most cars in F and G!!!

I went from 25th fastest in raw times to being the in top 10! 11th at the final event, but it was a WOT, 1.5 mile course that the badboy M3's and 'Vettes ate up. Still, not too shabby.

Running on Azenis with the above setup yielded quick times, too (~18th, run during fun runs), but the r-comps are just sooooo much quicker. Yes, running on Hoosiers or V710's would step it up another notch, but buying 2 full sets of racing rubber every season is not in the cards for me. RA-1's or PSC's will last an entire season (9 events), while the Hoosiers or V710's last 4 events on our VERY rough asphalt surface... Did I mention that it's rough?

So, moral of the story - money spent on the suspension paid off BIG TIME. Power mods did little, if anything, but some lighter parts like the Borla cat-back DO help with weight. Supension mods took me from 40th fastest to ~18th fastest on street tires. And broke into the top 10 with r-comps. This is giving up at LEAST 100 whp to all the cars above and below me (my car dyno'ed at a blistering 110 at the wheels) - Evo's, STI's, highly modded e30 and e36 M3's, Corvettes, etc.

This season, I jumped up two classes to E for more competition - will be running with moderately modded e36 M3's (mostly suspension), stock e46 M3's, M-coupes and M-roadsters, among others. I added a Schroth clip-in harness, OMP upper strut brace, OMP lower chassis brace, installed an aFe Magnum Force intake and re-installed the MTH. If my times from last season are any indicator, I expect to be very competitive this season in this tough class.

Just my $.02. Suspension, tires, and lightening up the car make, BY FAR, the biggest difference for the Cooper - that, and seat time, of course.

 

Get some Webb Motorsports camber plates and rear H-sport or Webb Motorsport control arms to get the optimal amount of front/rear camber, this would cure your corner exit speed as you mentioned was one main problem. 1.5 seconds can definitely be made up with mods, there is always course dependancy as well.

Also, go with some special order 15x7.5 Rota Slipstreams that I am getting ready to setup a group buy on and you'll cut off that 1.5 seconds IMO when paired along with the camber plates and control arms.

Youre probably right, those springs are probably really hurting rather than helping I would guess.

You've got a ton more mods that could be done in STS. Until the Mini is prepped to the max in STS, or, in your case, even half way there, it will never hang with the fully prepped Civic's with similar drivers IMVHO. :-) The only way to find out if it would be competitive, is to do it, but, thats a big investment on something that MIGHT be good enough. I'm taking that risk in STX this season, so, we'll see what happens. :-)

 

I would be very interested in the 15x7.5 inch Rota's. Let me know the details and we can work something out.

No doubt my car is far from fully set up for STS. I'm sure I could gain some time by fine tuning the suspension but I'm not sure about 1.5 seconds on a 40 second course. One thing for sure is that the 205/40 16 looks a lot skinnier then the 205/50 15. Stretch that puppy on a 7.5 inch wheel and I'm sure it would give some additional grip and look awesome to boot.

The camber plates I question....My front tire temps were 110 on the outside and 102 on the inside after my runs, even less in the rear. I was expecting much more then this. I haven't had the car aligned since I installed the springs but I would guess I'm running a little over 1 degree negative camber in the front and similar in the rear. I still have some adjustment in the rear swaybar that could possibly lower those numbers even more.

Anyway, I've owned this car for three years now. It's the longest I've ever owned a car. I drive a lot of cars because of my job and very few cars put a smile on my face more then this one. Of course, the more I modify the harder it becomes to live with on a daily basis. That's partly why I'm hesitant to make some of these other modifications.....Thanks for the advice.

Stuart

 

Stuart

I will let you know on the Rota's, I've already had some good interest on them. The camber plates will definitely allow you to push it way faster around the sweepers and slightly faster on cornering, this will make up the time with wider wheels/tires I think. You'd want to run 2.2 +/- or so degree's front and roughly 1 degree less on the rear I think. I'll know more when I actually pick mine up from Webb and get it tuned properly. Running with camber will take some driving adjustments and seat time to maximize potential, I'm sure its going to take me a good while to maximize potential as well, so, I'll probably be humbled at the first few national events. Definitely don't discount how valuble 2+ degree's of negative camber is though, its priceless IMO for sweepers especially. I'd bet you could carry an extra 5+ mph around some long, higher speed sweepers. Obviously I'm guessing on speeds, but, bottom line is, you can go way faster that with just 1 degree up front.

Anyway, I'll let you know on the Rota Slipstreams in 15x7.5's. I'll have the 15x7's in flat black in a day or two, so, I can take some pics once my car is done. Oh, also, Hankook is coming out with a 225/45/15 Z212 in the 2nd Qtr of 06, so, we'll have a really good 15" option very soon.

Craig

 

Yes, IMHO -2.2 up front and -1.2-1.0 out back is the best... It is much faster through sweepers, but the car also hooks up better in tight corners, too.

Be prepared to back off your rear swaybar when you add the camber plates - if you're running a 22mm bar, I can almost guarantee that the car will be way tail happy. I've helped several MCS owners back their bar off in the staging area... Depending on driving style, some went middle hole and some went with the softest setting... I didn't have to change mine, but I'm running a 19mm rear bar.

 

Sweet! Sounds like camber really does what I anticipate it to do for the Mini.

 

Looks like I might need to install a set of Camber plates and 15's before I give up on STS. Thanks for the advice and I'll keep you posted on my results.

Stuart