Hi NAM,

I've recently started to attend and sign up for more driving events, mostly HPDEs. I know seat time is the best and I have 3 track day events lined up this month. For those who track and or autocross their MINIS, can you share your specific tips in regards to the specific driving characteristics of our MINIs. I understand FWD and under-steer and some of the basics of weight balance, racing lines, etc. I have also been reading lots of materials from the likes of Ross Bentley and watching various videos. Racing school is not an option for me as funds doesn’t allow it and I am not that hardcore – just out to have fun in a safe manner. That said, I know there’s a lot to be learned and I want to learn (and have fun too, the only reason why I attend these events).

Please share your tips and advice – no matter how trivial you think they may be. I also have a few questions and I am hoping to get varying insights from the NAM.

I know there is no one rule fits all and each case is different– but generally speaking:

-Should I trail brake in a turn, or should I finish my braking before the turn?

-bonus questions – do the best lines for a Miata apply to our cars?

-I saw a guide for streets of willow CW for Miatas – should I follow that or is it different for our cars?

-Do these MINIs do better using early apex, or late apex – generally speaking

-Will I benefit from learning left foot braking to keep the RPM high in a turn? Or forget that until I get better?

-Should I set my rear sway bar to the stiffest setting? – right now it is in the middle setting and I can feel the car rotate, but only with aggressive braking

-or should I set the rear camber to less than the front? right now both are at about -1.25 with 0 toe.



Any piece of advice is appreciated, and I’m sure others will benefit too.



FYI - I drive an R53 with a 15% pulley, CAI, colder plugs, 380cc, waiting to get RMW tune, 22RSB, Swift Springs, 16x7 RPF1- 205-55-16 RE71R,fixed front camber plates - adjustable rear camber, and poly front bushes, schroth quick-fit harness. Maintenance up to date, bled brakes with ATE, all fresh fluids, no leaks etc.

 

Some input. I am in no way an expert but have been tracking my R53 JCW a few times a year for the past four or five years, mostly at Calabogie Motrorsport Park

-Should I trail brake in a turn, or should I finish my braking before the turn?
I tend to avoid trail braking on the track. I tend to scrub off speed before I start turning in. I just find the car to be more stable while braking in a straight line as possible. The only times I catch myself trail braking is if I've missed my braking point and am carrying a little too much speed during turn in. But that's just me.

-bonus questions – do the best lines for a Miata apply to our cars?
I don't think so. Driving lines can differ a bit between FWD and RWD cars. They can also differ with driving style. I'm still trying to find the best lines at my local track. I have to say that my RWD experience in track settings are limited. Get some seat time with someone who knows the track well and who drives a FWD car. You'll learn tons.

-Will I benefit from learning left foot braking to keep the RPM high in a turn? Or forget that until I get better?
I would concentrate on the essentials before looking at left foot braking. Get comfortable with the track layout and the driving lines, get familiar with your braking points and how much braking input is best for maximizing smooth speed trough the corners, figure out when and where to upshift and downshift (beginners usually have a tendency to use too many gears), etc. In my mind, it would be better to work on heel-toe shifting rather than left foot braking. Others may wish to provide input here.


-Should I set my rear sway bar to the stiffest setting? – right now it is in the middle setting and I can feel the car rotate, but only with aggressive braking
I found in my case that having the rear sway bar set to full stiff generated too much oversteer. I run mine on the middle setting. I have a 25mm hollow Hotchkis rear sway bar installed paired with KONI Yellows and Swift Spec R springs.

-or should I set the rear camber to less than the front? right now both are at about -1.25 with 0 toe.
I mostly do autocross with my MINI and have camber set at -1.9 in the front and -1.2 in the back. I believe I have stock tow all around. This works for me but some of the track junkies may have better suggestions for track focused alignments. I suggest you search the forum for more info on alignment set ups.

Other stuff
The best tires I've run at the track so far are the Hankook RS4. They are more heat compliant than the RE71R which can overheat and result in significant traction loss. The RS4 also wear like iron. Upgrading brake pads and fluid can help better manage brake fade. I currently run EBC Yellow Stuff pads with Motul RBF 600 fluid - much better than stock stuff. I don't get any brake fade with this setup.

Watch your tire pressure: it will increase significantly after a few laps. Pull in to the pits and bleed air with a good tire pressure gauge. I usually run between 32 and 35 psi hot. Some may say that this is too high.

Check that your lug bolts / lug nuts are properly torqued between runs. I had two lug nuts that were only hand tight () after three sessions. Better safe than sorry.

A final note - I don't run my quickfit harness at the track since I don't have a Hans-type neck restraint device yet. I've been told by experienced drivers that your neck is actually safer in an accident in your OEM three point belt than while wearing a 4 point harness.

Hope this helps.

 

For most of these, the answer will be "it depends". I only have about 10 HPDE days under my belt, but generally:
- I finish braking before the turn
- Miata's are RWD, so although some of their lines are good, not all of them are
- The apex will 100% depend on the turn
- no idea on the RSB. Mine's currently set to the stiffest setting, and I'm cool with that.

Anyway, watching this thread because it's hard to find FWD momentum car track tips, so I'm very interested in what others have to say

 

Thanks for the response, Minibeagle.

I know there are so many variables, but generally, do you do zero braking and zero throttle in the turn (completely foot off)? And then you slowly get on the throttle as you unwind to exit?

Oh, so do you almost always brake in a straight line before the turn?

sorry - I am a newbie at this.

 

Hey David,

I will try to change my RSB to the stiffest. Any things i need to watch out and be careful of? I am hesitant to try it because I am scared I might oversteer and spin out.

 

what tracks will you be at?

1: Depends on the turn, weight transfer is critical, some corners need trail braking all the way to apex (vir turn 1), some only need a dab to set the nose down (vir turn 11)

2: very few lines are car dependent there is a fast way around the track, there may be a few feet here or there where a rwd car vs fwd car has a difference

3: early/late is a function of the corner and the driver skill more than the car. starting out your instructor will want late apex as it's safer.

4: heel toe is not optional at higher speed, left foot braking is an advanced skill I would not want to ride with a new driver experimenting with either.

5: RSB full stiff if it's dry/warm, the colder or wetter the less bar I Run.

6: camber is tire dependent, I run -3 both ends with 200tw and slicks. I like zero toe

a couple of vids for inspiration, these were this past weekend in the instructor and advanced run group

 

Thanks, Mrblah,

I am going to the Streets of Willow this Friday. I reviewed the map and the racing lines online and could only find one for a miata. When I drove on the streets of willow CCW, I find that I/the car wants earlier apex and let the car rotate by braking mid turn. Perhaps bad habit? Too eager?


"4: heel toe is not optional at higher speed, left foot braking is an advanced skill I would not want to ride with a new driver experimenting with either."

I am very comfortable with heel and toe. I have been driving stick shift for 20 years and use heel-toe on the street. Left foot braking on the other hand..... I tried it once --- big mistake. got confused and mistook the brake for the clutch. luckily nobody was behind me.

5: RSB full stiff if it's dry/warm, the colder or wetter the less bar I Run.

ok, it will be dry and kinda warm this Friday- will try stiffest setting and try to listen/feel/sense the car very well. - again, scared of a spin out.

6: camber is tire dependent, I run -3 both ends with 200tw and slicks. I like zero toe

Cool! mine are zero toe. Fronts are fixed camber and wont worry too much about that since I can't do anything. If anything, I'll start with matching both front and rear based on your setting and play with it later on.

a couple of vids for inspiration, these were this past weekend in the instructor and advanced run group

Nice! thanks for the videos. I reviewed them it really helps to see how much braking and throttle you are applying in regards to the steering. Again, thanks! the videos are very helpful.

 

if you are nervous start out with the bar in the middle, it's pretty easy to change it at the track.

With FWD there is less need for left foot braking, we cannot induce oversteer with brake & gas. I only use it on corners that just need a light brush or dab of brake for weight transfer

 

Sorry- I'm a bit confused and I may be misunderstanding something. You say we cannot induce oversteer with brake. Whenever I brake hard and then turn the wheel, I feel the car rotate. Is that different than oversteer? I'm just trying to learn as much as I can without being and overthinker. my main goal is to be safe and have fun.

 

Brake + gas, with rwd you can brake and add throttle at the same time to induce oversteer. That does not work with fwd


Brake + turn works the same, left foot braking let's you get on the throttle a couple milliseconds faster but we don't get to induce drift mode like rwd can

 

Brake + gas, with rwd you can brake and add throttle at the same time to induce oversteer. That does not work with fwd

Brake + turn works the same, left foot braking let's you get on the throttle a couple milliseconds faster but we don't get to induce drift mode like rwd can

oh - I get it. thanks for the clarification. Brake and gas at the same time does not work for us. And for shaving off milliseconds with left foot braking - I guess I am better off diverting my efforts towards practicing my braking, turning, lines and weight transfer and forget left foot braking.

 

For the RSB, don't over think it. Take your lap at whatever speed. Things feel good? Try a specific corner a bit harder. Still good? Repeat. Be ready to make corrections if things start to go sideways...heh. If nothing felt good, then on the next session try changing the RSB setting. It's really butt in seat that will help you get where you want. I mean, *sure*, someone can say "This setting is best, I've been doing this for 100 years!!". But that's them in their car. This is you in yours. Besides, and I could be 100% wrong here, but at our level, I don't think it'll really make much difference. Neither one of us is driving at 10/10, even if it feels like it . And depending on the track you're at, don't be afraid to go off. I'm not saying go off intentionally. Or in places where it's actually dangerous. The last track I did, Chuckwalla, had lots of flat desert. I went off a lot while learning some limits on some corners.

Oh, and some corners are gas into the corner, let off the gas, turn in, gas out of the turn. The banking turn at Chuckwalla, for example. Making that change (per an instructors suggestion) took my exit speed from 60-ish mph to about 80mph. I have videos if you're into that kind of thing.

 

Hey, I still consider myself a newbie but I learn a little bit more every time I'm out lapping.

I go back to the throttle once I'm done braking for a turn.One of the first things I was taught when I began autocrossing is that you want to avoid coasting (no throttle or brake input) as much as possible. You're probably going to catch yourself coasting here and there at the beginning and that's ok. You'll notice that you won't be coasting as much once you get a few laps in and you become more confident in what you and the car can do. It kind of happens unconsciously as you realize that you can carry more speed while turning. The amount of throttle input you can provide while in a turn is usually dictated by how much traction is at your disposal. Your already know that you give the car more gas in a wide sweeping turn than in a hair pin turn. You will also learn to modulate your throttle inputs depending on the type of turn (constant radius, decreasing radius, increasing radius, positive or negative camber, etc.), how your tires are reacting to the track (cold or overheated tires don't grip as well as warm tires), etc.

Like I said earlier, I try do most of my breaking in a straight as much as possible so that I'm not dealing with an unsettled car while executing my turn. Some drivers will do a bit of trail braking while others never do. Everyone has their own style.

 

"Take your lap at whatever speed. Things feel good? Try a specific corner a bit harder. Still good? Repeat. Be ready to make corrections if things start to go sideways."

David, thanks for the tips. I will take note of how the car feels in the corner, then adjust as necessary. These are the kinds of tips I'm glad to have before I get to the track.

 

Thanks, MiniBeagle.

"I try do mostof my breaking in a straight as much as possible so that I'm not dealing with an unsettled car while executing my turn. Some drivers will do a bit of trail braking while others never do. Everyone has their own style."

This makes a lot of sense. Again, thanks for the tips. I find that whenever I don't set the car up properly before the turn, I am struggle at the turn. I think I will try your style first and then slowly experiment with mild trail braking.

 

trail braking is faster, at some point if you are racing or doing time trial you will have to start doing it to keep up.

Watch my 2nd vid and watch the brake pressure vs my hands and how much I turn while still on the brakes. Right off the bat in turn 1 I needed more bite and I dabbed the brake again

 

Cool, very smooth. I’ll be going to the streets of willow clockwise tomorrow. Only 30 cars and two run groups at 30minutes per session so I’ll have plenty of time to practice. Your second video really helped me understand how trail braking works. I’ll report back.

Do you think the streets of willow clockwise has many early apexes? Or is that something only I can answer?

 

late apexing when you should have early apexed will result in brown stains in your underwear. it also creates muscle memory in your brain, you wont do it again.....

if you have an instructor they will help with this, as they too do not want to die

 

Alright NAM,

I'm back from Streets of Willow. Here's what I learned from around 45 laps around Streets of Willow. Please let me know if I am wrong or mistaken.

-Trail braking is necessary in some corners, especially the larger ones and faster ones, to rotate the car.
-In some tight corners, no trail-braking can be done. Heel-toe downshift and braking should be completed before the turn because there is no time for that while negotiating/accelerating through the turn.
-Left foot braking is something I can't do no matter how hard I try. Like juggling *****, I simply don't have the coordination to do it. I even tried heel and toe without downshifting.
-There are corners where I am not shifting up unnecessarily - I could just keep it in a high RPM in that gear.
- Always remember to go slow when tires, brakes, engine and driver are cold. I spun out at turn 3. It was in the afternoon, after lunch time, I went in too hot and lost control. Luckily, It did not cause and major damage.
-Corners are all connected. You are slow in some to be fast in the next one, or vise-versa. Pick the fastest corners, and compromise the slower ones. Corners leading to a straight are faster and should be prioritized.

Below is my fastest lap of the day. I would appreciate it if you can constructively criticize it. I am not going to take it personally - trying to learn as much as I can. If in your opinion I am doing something unsafe or incorrect, please let me know.
Thanks in advance.

 

just paste the youtube link it'll auto format it. the most important corner is the last one you have to slow for before a straight. low hp cars can flat foot earlier than high hp, like vir turn 5

 

Thanks, I’ve uploaded the video and posted the link.

 

Only watched it once but in general your line looked pretty good! I'm not familiar with that track so it is hard to tell from one quick view. Hope you had a blast.

Trail braking - I agree that trail braking is necessary in some turns. It helps keep the load on the front tires which increases grip and helps the car rotate. As you said, some corners it isn't appropriate.
Left foot braking - I think it is really only useful in autocross, or certain turns where you need just a dab of brake to set the car for a slight turn. I don't bother with it.
I have never found early apex to be the right thing - any time I turn in too early I always find I'm worried about staying on the track.

The rest of your points - take it easy on cold tires, and corners are connected, pick where to be fast and where to be slow, are right on. I'll watch the video again and post any further comments

 

i forgot to comment on the video, get inside wheel right up on the edge if not on the curbs, you can be quicker on the gas on exit too. I cant see your feet but it sounds like you are abrupt with the throttle, unwide & feed throttle smoothly

that track is made for minis, wish it was out here on the east coast

 

Yeah, I really enjoy this track. Thanks for the tip about being smooth on the throttle. I rewatched your videos, and they help more every time I watch them.

Aside from seat time and what I already have (15pulley, 380cc, CAI, Colder plugs, fixed camber plates, swift springs, 22 rsb, r56 brakes with yellowstuff,16x7 rpf1 and re71r) what mods do you think I can benefit from the most? I’m thinking of the tsw x brace or save up for an LSD but my clutch is still good, or I can save up for a header, cam and tune or for cheaper, I can just get the x brace and lots of seat time. Not trying to break records, but don’t want to break my car either. What are your thoughts?

 

the best mod you can make is more seat time.

I agree with Mr. Blah - hit the curbs (where they exist) and smooth on the throttle. There's a couple of places where it sounds like throttle - hesitate - throttle. Get on the gas smoothly as you start to straighten out after the apex. Take a few laps slow and concentrate on being as smooth as possible. Then turn it up.