OK-

I have done the engine mods I want. Now on to the suspension.

I don't want to change the springs but I want to tighten up the steering and the biggest thing I keep hearing is the sway bar. No problem. I understand this one and will get it more than likely after Christmas (the engine mods already took away most of the money for my wife's Christmas presents ).

Now I am reading about Alta's link ends.

1. Do they really make a difference?
2. Will I notice the difference with a new sway bar in place (thinking about the Rspeed).
3. Should I even bother?

Thanks for the expert help I always can count on here!!

Chris

 

First off changing the rear sway bar is a good move. However if you go with a swaybar that is 22mm then be prepared for some oversteer. I have a 22mm swaybar and it feels great at an autocross where you don't go over 60mph. However if you do any driving schools on real race tracks then watch out. Just this weekend I was at VIR for a high performance driving school. They have an extremely high speed section of uphill S's. Through this section I was going around 105 to 110. The car felt extremely unstable through here. The only mod that I have done to the suspension is changed the rear swaybar. I believe that there is a good bit of tension from the factory link ends causing the rear end of my car to have a lot higher spring rate. I have not yet ordered the adjustable end links but will be shortly.

 

what will be adjusted?

 

just wondering why you don't want to do springs?

 

Can you explain oversteer to me? I know I sound like a moron for asking but I am really not sure I understand what people mean.

I won't be doing any racing really. I drive the car pretty hard and love to take take turns as fast as possible (in safe conditions when noone is around).

I am concerned about what you meant by unstable at 105-110. While I won't be driving that fast I do tend to cruise around 85 or so on the longer trips and don't want any issues there.

Also what bar do you have and what setting do you have it on?

I ordered the RSpeed 22mm bar and plan on leaving it in the middle setting which is where most people suggest.

Thanks for the help!

Chris

 

oversteer means the rear end becomes too light... the weight transfer goes to the front so in a sense the rear wheels are turning faster than the front.. essentially the rear comes around... cuze its rotating faster than the front... in a normal front drive car.. oversteer can be induced by mid corner braking, or left foot braking.. therefore loading the front causing the rear to go light... i know this sounds very piece by piece... but i think this is the jest of it

i got the h-sport and my one advice i can give if u intend to put it in the middle is DO NOT brake if your rear starts coming around... it is the worst thing u can do to yourself

 

Yea, I plan on getting an H-sport swaybar and running it in the soft setting for the street. Very sharp corners like on auto-x will allow you to increase the stiffness which lets you keep the gas on through the corner. If you brake in the middle of a corner, the real end will go around. Through higher speed corners, you don't need that much lateral stability as the corner isn't as sharp (and your going much faster). A very stiff swaybar will cause the loss of traction in the rear when you really need it.

For street driving, you'll never find a highway with sharp enough curves that will cause this loss of traction. Race courses and the street are completely different beasts. If you get a swaybar, start on the middle setting and then go out (safely) and try it out. If you feel the rear end coming around, you might want to step it down to the soft setting or adjust your driving style. The MINI understeers quite a bit at the limit so there is some room to work with.

 

I installed the Madness 22mm swaybar in July '03 on my Cooper and kept it on the "softest" of the 3 possible settings. I autocrossed this season on that setting, as I wanted to understand what the swaybar was doing for me. Over Thanksgiving this year I moved to the middle setting. It is unbelievable, the rear-end seems to be much more alive. Life in next year's autocross season is going to be a whole lot more fun.

When I changed the swaybar setting, I also installed a set of adjustable swaybar links. The one's that I installed are from ProMini. It is my understanding that adjusting these links also changes how the swaybar works. Starting with the swaybar parallel to the ground, when you make the swaybar links longer, this forces the swaybar end to rise, thus make the swaybar even stiffer. So if I make the swaybar links shorter, pulling down the swaybar ends toward the ground, thus making the swaybar softer.

A suggestion, install the swaybar on the softest setting and then move up to the middle setting. Changing setting is very easy, you should be able to change the settings in 45 - 60 minutes. Gotta jackup the rear and pull the wheels, disconnect the swaybar link end that is attached to the swaybar itself, move to the next hole/setting. Tighten everything up, put the wheels back on, and lower the rear. U are now ready to go again.

 

Here is a pretty explaination of oversteer and understeer. Hope this helps - :smile:

Fortunately, a well designed car does not suddenly break into a skid. As the tyre approach their traction limits, they tend to slip sideways across the road. The angle between the tyres actual path and its natural path is called its slip angle. This gives the driver advance warning that the front/rear of the car is in danger of breaking loose and starting a skid.


If the rear tyres approach their traction limit more rapidly than the front, then the effect is for the rear of the car to steer a wider path than the front wheels. This rotates the car more than the driver intended and, if nothing is done, leads to the car turning a smaller radius corner. When this occurs the car is said to oversteer.

If the front tyre approach the traction limit more rapidly, the effect is that the front of the car takes a wider radius curve than the driver intended. The car is said to understeer. Understeer is safer than oversteer. If the car understeers, and no correction is made the result is a wider corner than intended, but the car remains stable. If the car oversteers, the turn made has smaller radius than intended. The smaller radius produces higher cornering forces bring the required traction even closer to the limit of the rear wheels, and thus causing even more oversteer. The situation becomes worse until the rear wheels lose grip completely; the car spins and all directional control is lost.

 

I have the r-speed rear bar on my cooper with ss+. I agree with Spillman on the high speed. I was at Infineon a rew weeks ago, and the car rotated really nice on the slower sharper turns, very controllable, but I swappend ends on the third turn in the esses. LIke Spillman said, high speed increasing radius set of turns. I was running on the middle setting. I think I will go on the softest setting on the track nextime, and keep it on the middle around town, The middle setting is great fun, but a bit exciting on fast 90mph + turns.

You made a great choice with the R-speed bar

 

Do the end links make a good improvement for street use or are they only worth it on the track?

 

You'll probably notice zilch (sp?) difference on the streets. Im very
skeptical of spherical bearings too...I had extreme rattle on my
previous car when I 'upgraded' endlinks.

Stock endlinks work fine unless you have really thick swaybars on
the stiffest setting...then the endlink could break. I don't see that
happening on my 22mm swaybar.

 

1. Do they really make a difference? For street driving the link ends don't make a difference. The rear sway bar helps reduce understeer but mostly with aggressive driving, at autocross or on the track (not with regular street driving). Link ends don't break with normal driving- a few have broken at the track- and usually when being used with aftermarket rear sway bars.

2. Will I notice the difference with a new sway bar in place (thinking about the Rspeed). No difference for performance in a straight line, big difference when cornering at speed. I'd suggest the softest setting first since the Rspeed bar is quite stiff. If that setting suits your driving style then no further change will be needed. If you ever autocross then the middle setting might also work for you.

3. Should I even bother? For the Rspeed bar- yes. For the link ends- no.

 

[QUOTE=CustomAV]Can you explain oversteer to me? I know I sound like a moron for asking but I am really not sure I understand what people mean.


Oversteer is when you hit the guardrail with the back of the car, understeer is when you hit it with the front.

But seriously folks..... Here's my setup that works very well for me.
H-Sport Springs
H-Sport Comp Rear Bar set in the middle for street stuff.
Stock front bar.
H-Sport Rear Lower arms.
I have the Alta links front and rear, but have broken a rod end on the fronts twice. Alta is looking into this issue.
Jim

 

I know I've posted this before; Sway bar thickness must be based upon spring and dampeing rates - and obviously for the type of driving you have planned. A 22mm bar is too much bar for the stock springs. Yes, this will certainly remove understeer for autocrossing events, but this will also make for a very lively, if not dangerously unpredictable car when slaloming thru your favorite fast esses on the street or track.

Simply, softer (stock) springs will cause a larger (22mm) bar to work more quickly than a smaller diameter bar. This is so because a softer suspension's lean and lean rate will cause a larger bar to 'come on line' quicker.

Your set up should be defined by spring rates first, then dampers and then, sway bars for fine tuning. If you follow this method using well matched components, you will end up with a package that has all best characteristics that you are looking for without nasty side affects.

 

Driver error!!!!!!

If you're referring to the exit of 8a, that is a tricky turn no matter what, since you accelerate hard out of there and car gets light. The hairs on the back of my neck stand up when riding a bike through there, as I feel the front push pretty hard going over the rise. It used to be even worse before they moved the hill back.

I'm not sure you can blame the setup, with Sears Point setup there is 100% pure compromise--and understanding where the car will work great and where it won't, is key. However, I'd be inclined to set the car up to perform best through that section because it is fast and it's a key area for lowering lap times.

One problem with the Mini is it begins to feel so light above 80mph. It really needs better aero for more down force, or something.

 

I agree, the Mini definately does not hunker down when really pushed... electronic steering doesn't help

 

I have the big hollow H-sport rear bar and springs. I broke my stock link in two. Not during a track day. I replaced the stock links with Webb Motorsports links, because they looked stronger overall when compared side-by-side to the Alta links. Especially the rod ends. More money, but they seemed worth it to me. Just my opinion.