Hi Folks,
I’m looking at picking up a used Cooper S. I’ve been able to test drive (really aggressively) the 2012 Hardtop and the Clubman S side by side a number of times.
I’m finding that the handling of the Clubman just can’t compare to the Hardtop. In fact, the difference was quite stark. I think LILERD best articulated it in this old thread. In my more nontechnical analysis, the Hardtop was much more fun and responsive. It turned on a dime, it felt like everything a mini is supposed to be. Every turn, whether into a driveway or at speed, elicited a visceral reaction. You felt the bumps, but not in a jarring way like a BMW does - it’s that BMW suspension magic. It was confidence inspiring when I pushed it. It was a thrill.

In the clubman, I felt like I was fighting the car in hard turns, it made me nervous at the limits, and bumps didn’t give the same responsiveness. I walked away really disappointed by the Clubman. Unfortunately, I really wanted to like it as I need the extra space when I have to shuttle the kids and their sports gear. (Wife has a mini-van).
Keep in mind that I drove them “hard” and (i think) I have a pretty high bar. The last “Fun” car I had (before kids) was an E36 M3 which I autocrossed and drove hard in the hills all over California.
So here are my questions:
a) am I insane or too critical? Am I imagining the differences? I’m not saying the Clubman is not fun, but driving it next to the hardtop may have spoiled me.
b) If the difference is not imagined, what mods, if any, would be required to get the Clubman to match there Cooper’s handling?

By the way, everything should have been the same in both cars. Both were Cooper S’s. One has 20k miles, the other 32k. Both had the salesperson and (ahem) thee kids in the back seat.


Thanks in advance for any thoughts!

 

Hmm..
You could cut the clubman in half...remove about a foot...weld it back...
Other than that, cars are basicly the same (assuming they both had the same packages..pretty rare)...
The difference in feel is about wheelbase and weight...
Not sure how you can compensate for that...
But this bump might help you...

 

Did you account for difference in tires?

 

Start with an Hsport Comp Rear sway bar, then drive it and make a plan from there.
I have a clubman and love it. But it is heavier so it will always be different. The suspension is the same on the cars, just the rear springs are a little heavier for the weight.

 

You are not imagining the difference in handling. The short answer to you question is, chop about a foot and a half off the end of the clubman, and it should handle and feel like a hardtop. The reason why the hardtop is so responsive and fun is becuase of the short wheelbase and suspesion plain and simple. You can only do so much to the Clubman suspension (rear sway and springs), but there is no way you will be able to mimic the hartop "feel" in a Clubman. I would guess you can get to about 50% the feel of a hardtop, but that is about it.

 

I vote (a).

 

I did not, unfortunately, check the tires, but they should have been the same. Both were Cooper S's (low mileage). I could double check. Both had sport. I also actually drove two Hardtops, (though it's possible the Clubman was the odd man out) as well as previously my brother's convertible and the Clubman just wasn't the same. :(

 

 

You say both had Sport, I am assuming you mean Sport Package. Did you check if perhaps one of them had Sport Suspension and the other did not? Sport Pack does not come with Sport Suspension, it is a separate, additional option.

Anyways, it sounds like you really don't have much of a choice. Children only grow bigger, and a Clubman is still a whole lot better than your wife's minivan.

Do some research on available suspension upgrades for the Clubman, I am sure there is a decent amount of aftermarket parts (upgraded springs, sway bars, strut tower braces, coil-overs, etc.). If you need references, check out the vendors on this forum. You can often PM them directly and they will give you some good advice.

 

I own both can't say the 56 is any better than my 55 . I know with my mods it's actually a tad faster in a side by side 40-120 WOT test I was a few car lengths ahead at 120. Guess I don't drive in circles enough to notice and handling difference. But as others stated I replaced rear sway, and I have 17's vs the 56's stock 16's.

 

Wheels and tires make a huge difference.

It would be worthwhile to go back and check for yourself.

16" OEM wheels are 16x6.5" and tires are 195/55-16 if stock, 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 are commonly also used.

17" OEM wheels are 17x7" and tires are 205/45-17 or 215/45-17.

The performance of the 17" combo is much better handling than the softer riding but much less responsive 16" combo.

You can get a Clubman to handle better with suspension upgrades such as Koni FSD shocks/OEM springs and going with light weight 17" wheels. Great non runflat tires like Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Summer tire) in 205/45-17 would be vastly better than any of the tires you used for those test drives.

 

Thanks again everyone for their help!
So, I made the call and my 2012 Clubman S with 32000 miles arrives tomorrow (hopefully).

Based upon your responses, and research it looks like (after driving it for a few weeks) , I will do the following:
1) Koni FSD - Seems like this will give me what I need in terms of improved handling without a sacrifice in comfort as most of my driving will be city driving in Boston, where the roads are atrocious. Absolutely atrocious.
2) HSport rear Sway bar from Way Motor works at the same time.

3) Sooner or later get non RF tires. If I can sell the RF on there now, I'll do it sooner. I'm just not sure about 16 or 17 yet.

Any other recs?
Seems like it's probably not worthwhile to do the springs as I don't think I need it lowered, although the wheel gap is just so big. Just afraid of too stiff a ride around here.

 

I went back and checked, they were all 16's. I used to have the pilot's on the M3. Loved those tires.

 

Thanks for this clarification . They were all Sport "Mode", not sport suspension.

I'm coming from a 2001 Acura MDX with 200k miles on the Original suspension, so anything is better!
But yes, the HT would be too small for us even now with all the kid's sports and school stuff. I was debating getting the 135i, which is a beast, even after I signed the paperwork. It reminded me a lot of my M3. However, my wife made a great point: "drive the Clubman for 2 more years, and then give it to [our daughter] and get yourself another car car then." Best of both worlds! Really looking forward to the mini now esp as a project car; probably would have left the 135 stock.

 

Not to say something terribly obvious, but:
a). Clubman is not all THAT much more family friendly. Hardtop 4-door or a Coutryman may fit your needs better.
b). Clubman is heavier than a HT. Full stop. You can make it handle better by throwing money at it, but it will never handle as well as a HT with equivalent $$ amount of mods.

There is no 135 in the US, only 235.
Either car is almost as heavy as a 3-series (north of 3500 lbs)

If you are serious about allowing your kids to self in/egress the car (makes life Sooooo much easier, especially in the rain, or during multiple shopping stops), then it's time for a 3-series.

It will cost you less than a JCW.
Most models will be faster than a JCW.
If your budget can support a 335, or M3, those cars will put a permanent smile on your face every time you drive one. So does an MCS or a JCW, but in a different way.

Once you have kids big enough to get in and out of your car on their own, you will figure out you are better off with a 4-door car!


Good luck,
a

 

There's no 135i any more, but they're still available gently used, in Canada anyway.

 

Ah, you probably missed the post where i mentioned my wife has an Odyssey. This is my daily commute car with pick-up from school or to sports, activities a few times a week. So backpacks, tennis bags, basketball gear, etc. I did get very close to getting an E39 M5 thinking I would need the 4 doors, but after carefully considering the use cases (and the thought of getting a 12 YO car) just realized I could live with the 2 (or 3) doors. My kids are big enough to get in and out, open the door, and even the suicide door. I RARELY have three of them in the car. So most of the time one will be in the front seat, one in the back, where they'll be more than capable of getting in and out themselves.
And yes, the clubman will never handle like the HT, but that's the compromise I had to make.
Perhaps I will find that a 3 door car won't work, but luckily the dealer has a 30-day return policy.

Was talking about a used 135. I think that's going to be a classic and they're just a few thousand more than the used Clubman. But the 135 couldn't fit the tennis ball machine. The 235's are pure electronic steering and don't have the same feel as the 135. Reviews of it are quite poor.

Yawn. 3 series are as popular as Honda Accords around here. And so big now. Coopers are pretty popular too, but the 135 is actually really rare.

Sigh, yes. I did look at an E92 M3. I used to have an E36. And Looked at it again. And Again. But the car was twice as much as the Clubman. Just don't want to spend that kind of $$ right now. A $16,000 (FUN) car with warranty was too hard to turn down.

Besides, in 2-3 years, the clubman goes to my daughter, and I get a to start this process over again. I'm thinking a nicely used 135is or, if by some miracle I find one, a 1M.

 

There you go, you are not stuck with it forever. And I think you will really like the Clubman on a daily basis. Congrats on the car and post some pictures when you get it.

 

biggest handling improvements i've made to my clubby:
Non-RF tires, went with RE760 sports
TSW under chassis brace
rear (behind rear seats) brace
Koni Yellows with NM springs (gets rid of the gap with out slamming the car)
and a RSB set to however you like it.

Now my car is stiff at all four corners, turns on a dime, pretty much zero body roll, and not a harsh ride. I know some folks says the bracing doesn't do much, but I think in the clubby it really helped dramatically with it's slightly longer/heavier body.

 

despite the mods people are listing, the clubman simply won't handle the same or feel anywhere near the same. like someone mentioned, wheelbase and weight.

 

This was not part of the ask, but what you are really saying is that you need a wagon!
Which is fine, but that's a different ask, and it brings forth a totally different set of trade-offs. Yet the bottom line is the same: there are no mods that can make up for the extra weight you will be (are) dragging around with the wagons vs. equivalent coupe or sedan model of a vehicle.

I don't know where you are in the US, but consider grabbing one from the following: http://autos.jdpower.com/content/buy...er-s-guide.htm

Personally, I would have leaned towards Outback, but Clubman is also on that list.

You must not be in the US, as we never got 135 or any 1-series bimmers.
Clubman is discontinued as a model, and mostly will be depreciating rapidly from now on.

New electric power steering in 1- and 3-series is a bit of a let down vs. the feel of the old BMW hydraulic steering racks. But you bought a MINI, which also has electric steering rack - so how bad can it be?

a

 

afadeev, what are you talking about? There was a 135i for several years, sold as both a coupe and a convertible. There was also a 128i and a limited-run 1-Series M Coupe.

Clubman also only had regular power steering.

 

What MrElusive said. I'm sure you've even seen them on the road.

 

Strange, I must have missed them as all sub-3-series cars I have seen in the US are 2-doors (now known as 2-series coupe's):
http://www.bmwusa.com/

Did BMW really bring 4-door and 5-door 1-series to the US under my nose, or are we talking naming disparity (what used to be 1-series coupe is now 2-series) ?

a

 

The name change happened with the newest model s. Naming conventions are changed with the newest models. 3 and four series in 2012/2013. For the 1 series, from 2007-2013 It was the one series in the US. The new generation starting 2011 outside the US, it's the 2, as you indicated.
To be clear though, the 1 series is a 2 door. Not a four door. AFAIK they're not releasing a 4 door, but I'm not following so closely. I'm fine with a 2 door. The Clubman will accomplish what I need. I do not need a wagon. The original question was about the Clubman vs the hardtop. Just picked it up, and despite all the comparisons I did against the Hardtop, it's still a lot of fun.