in the latest fastrack rule change proposal, item 11 states Move the Mini Cooper S ('02+) to DS. Comment : this proposal is in anticipation of the Cooper S being equipped with a limited slip differential, more power, and better gearing for the 2005 model year. The intent is to keep all versions of the Cooper S together in a class appropriate to the capabilities of the best example of the model.. Looks like if you don't trade up to the 05 model you will be bringing up the rear... if you are an scca member you can write the SEB and voice your opinion,, The S has allready been in D stock and got moved to G stock because it couldn't keep up,, so what has changed ?????,,, it's been fun watching the Mini battle it out with the Toyota the past couple of years in G stock, but that could be a thing of the past if this proposal goes through

 

If the Cooper S was in D-Stock, at the last national tour, Chiles would have gotten 10th instead of 2nd. I would have gotten 14th instead of 6th. There is no way the Cooper S should be moved to D-Stock, with the exception of the 2005 model with LSD, better gearing and more HP. Its a no-brainer and the SEB needs to not be lazy here and class cars where appropriate. I'm sending my letter out Monday!!

 

I sure hope they do not do this. I'll write my letter, but if the change is made I guess I will have an excuse to start modding. . . .

 

To make it easy for us to write in support of keeping the MCS in G-stock -
Who does the letter go to and at what address by what date?
Thanks.

 

I did not see that yet. Of course, we know that the current Mini is placed perfectly in G-Stock and competes on close footing with the Celica GT. It seems to be me to be pure laziness to group all Mini Cooper S cars in the same class. I'll write to the SCCA when someone posts the contact info.

 

seb@scca.org

Definitely voice your opinion, but not with any invalid long arguments. You can simply just say "I don't think the '02+ MINI Cooper S should be classed in D Stock."

You can go on to say something like "although your goal is 'best in the breed', the two cars will be as different on the autocross course, if not more, than the Cooper vs. Cooper S."

Remind them how valuable an LSD is on the autocross course as well as better gearing and more power. Clearly, this isn't that much different than WRX vs. WRX STi.

Brian

 

Isn't this to prevent "no I don't have an LSD" claims by owners that do. Is there any info from MINI about stampings on the transmission to differentiate LSD vs. non-LSD cars? The performance gains are equal to WRX-WRX STi gaps, but you know an STi when you see it.

 

I'm not sure if there is any easy visible way to check for the presence of LSD in a 2005 MCS other than seeing the Factory options list from the sale of the car which states that the LSD was ordered as a Factory installed item and the VIN number on the invoice clearly matches the VIN number on the MINI.

Or in the case of trying to do autocross without LSD, show the factory options list that doesn't have LSD listed as ordered and appropriately confirm the VIN number matches the MINI.

I think all model year MCS should be G-stock and only 2005+ MCS with factory ordered LSD should go to D-stock. The better gearing only affects those with 2005 MCS an manual transmission- an automatic is new from Jan 2005. 7 HP isn't really that big a deal unless it really is true and not just dealership inflated estimates- an ECU tune up?

If all 2005 MCS go to D-stock then to compete you really MUST order LSD. Anybody got a price on that option? It's not a Quaife. Neither is the automatic transmission a CVT.

Where do the 80 pound heavier cabrios fit in to this equation? Heavier with no added power (for the MC)- that's a penalty that would negate any relative gain for the new MCS without LSD.

 

Don't you think it is really too fine of a question to have cars in a different class depending on whether or not it is LSD? That may weaken a more general request to keep 2004 and earlier Cooper S cars in G-Stock.

Do you know of any other car that is in a different class, depending on a drive train component? I don't think that asking the SCCA to implement a rule that has never been implemented for any other car would have a likely chance of being implemented. The argument would be more pursuasive if it was for all 2005+ Cooper S to be in D Stock.

 

if you want to know if the car has a LSD all you got to do is look at the time slip

 

I got a reply back from SCCA by email already.

Quote:
Just wanted to let you know that your letter has been logged 04-537 and
sent to the SEB and SAC for their consideration.

Thanks for your support of our club and solo.


- Doug

Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
1-800-770-2055
dgill@scca.com or
solotech@scca.com

 

Mark Chiles could beat me with a H stocker if I had DPaynes STX monster

 

Got a response back myself.

Folks, it's VERY obvious what car has a limited slip on an autocross course. It is ALWAYS up to the competitors to protest, and they will when someone tries to run an LSD in G Stock.

2005+ is the only way to class in my opinion. If you're buying a MINI to be competitive, you ought to know better to get the LSD.
For those who already own one, there's no option.

Now, it's not uncommon for people to buy a car at the National level, then trade up for the newer model because of wheel sizes, or other advantageous options. My argument to the SEB is simply that even though they may not change the name of this car, that option transforms the car dramatically AND, it's not just one thing.
Theoretically, with lower gearing, 7hp, and an LSD the car should even be a good bit faster in a straight line.

Here's an example. The C5 Corvette is outclassed by the Z06 and runs in the same class, BUT, the C5 was already in Super Stock and the Z06 was added. They didn't move the regular C5 UP a class.

Brian

 

IMO, all 2005's should go to DS regardless if they have LSD or not. If you guys argue this with the SEB, that, IMO, will definitely hurt the argument since its an easy add when ordering an 05 MCS.

Here is my letter

I appreciate all that the SCCA does with classing and realize that it can be an extemely difficult thing to do. After reading the Proposal to move the 2002-2004 Mini Cooper S to DS with the 2005 MCS that will be equipped with more HP, better gearing, and more importantly, LSD, I realize that, in my opinion, there have been some oversights made by whoever made the proposal and thats the reason for my letter.


Take one look at previous National Tour results in Peru, IN. Mark Chiles placed 2nd in GS, if he had been in DS, he would have placed 10th behind some less talented, IMO, DS drivers!

As far as performance changes for the 2005 MCS, to make a long story short, LSD, more HP and better gearing would result in about a 1 second improvement on the average autocross course, which would be a perfect fit for DS. Since the 2005 MCS is a brand new year with VERY significant changes, it should go to DS by itself. Every GS person I have spoken with says that they do not want the MCS to go to DS, hopefully they have written to you as I asked them to, I know some have.


Unless you have driven a MCS, you may no know how significant an LSD would be since thats the 02-04's most significant shortfall.


I can appreciate the "best of breed" argument, but I assure you, the 2005 MCS with LSD will not only be a different breed, it will be a completely different animal!!! :-))) I also realize classing the MCS's all together would make things easier for the SCCA but easy is not what this is all about IMO, its about correctly classing cars individually by year.

I appreciate your time and consideration

Craig Wilcox
#98 GS Mini Cooper S
KC region

 

Surely there is enough precedence regards splitting cars of the same model but different years and specs into different classes? The latest one that springs to mind is the 2004 S2000 moving to AS while the '00-03 remain as kings in BS. Prior to that there were the various years of Miatas and their varied classings.

All I have ever requested from the SCCA is consistency, and sadly it is the one thing they cannot seem to embrace. Politics and the old-boy network are a larger determining factor than common sense.

 

My opinion- 05 MCS DS, for the following reasons-
#1 Protest Issues. As the protester, you will have to put up the money for the protest, and tear down of the tranny. If the 05 is found to have a LSD the offender pays the money. This is too much hassle, money and time involved. At Topeka, I could see this happening- on the local level it is up to the competetor to be honest.

#2 Precedence is there for the split of years.
ES/CS Miatas .2 liter displacement (+12hp, +10 ft.lbs.), Torsen vs Viscous LSD, .5" wider wheels.
AS/BS S2000 .2 liter displacement (no HP increase, torque comes on lower and is higher 162 vs.153), .5" wider front/1" wider rear/1" larger wheels.
DS/BS BMW 330i perf. package. Don't know specifics- anyone??
The LSD on the MINI is equal to any of the above situations esp. the Miatas (7 more hp, LSD vs 10% effective viscous).

#3 If all MCS goes to DS, the following changes will need to be made (or at least cases for the moves will be there)- All Miatas to CS (not ES as is in the current member comment stage). All 330i's to BS. All S2000s to AS.

I have no dog in this fight, other than as an 01 S2000 owner, I do not want to run AS, after giving up the overdog in HStock.

The down side will be MINIs at the top of 4 classes (HS, GS, DS,(one third of all stock classes) and STX) and point #1 is a weak argument. Feel free to use these points w/ the SEB. Better if we can get the specifics on the BMW 330i.

Chris

 

I received log number 04-539 from the SCCA regarding my letter to the SEB, so according to the other members post, there have only been 3 letters sent in the last day. Hopefully we get enough response, please write to them asap!!!!

here is the link, once again

seb@scca.org

Please remember, as a group, we can and will make a difference here, only if we speak up though!!!!

 

I just sent my short letter to SCCA.

 

I got this back 7/12.

Hi, James,

Just wanted to let you know that your letter has been logged 04-536 and sent to
the SEB and SAC for their consideration.

Thanks for your support of our club and solo.


- Doug

Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
1-800-770-2055
dgill@scca.com or
solotech@scca.com

 

I agree with Craig on this. All 2005 MCS should be in DS since any 2005 can add a LSD either at build time if Jan. 2005-later or post-delivery install (probably) and stay in Stock. But by rule 2002-2004 CANNOT add the LSD and remain in Stock. Letters should ask that 2002-2004 MCS be left in GS where they are competitive but not dominant. Precedent exists (Integra R/Integra, S2000 2003 / 2002, etc.).

The SEB doesn't like a single model body in more than 2 classes (H, G and D), but sometimes that that should happen for currently popular cars. If MINI had just called the 2005 MCS by a different name (like MCS2), it would not be an issue. It is simple to distinguish 2005's from earlier years due to light changes and other small exterior changes.

Cheers,
Dave
(2005 MCS on order for Jan. 2005 build...)

 

I just read in the latest issue of "Sports Car" the official publication of the SCCA, that the Mini Cooper S years 02 to 04 are effectve 2005 are being moved from G Stock to D Stock because:

"Move the Mini Cooper S (02+) to DS. Comment: this proposal is in anticipation of the Cooper S being equiped with a limited-slip defferential, more power, and better gearing for the 2005 model year. The intent is to keep all versions of the Cooper S together in a class appropriate to the capabilities of the best example of the model."

This makes anyone with a current Mini Cooper S immediately uncompetitive!

The current Mini Cooper S has not been the dominate car in G Stock either regionaly or nationaly. Why would the SCCA move it up 3 classes? Although the current Mini S and the 2005 model are called the same model they are in effect mechanically different.

This is not fair.

To whom do I send my protest

Ron Rogers rcrogers@3rdwav.com

 

All you need is enough people to go, run 2 seconds below D stock times and say that the car is not competitive. 2006 the cars will get dropped.

Just make it look like they screwed up majorly then lobby next summer to get the rules changed again.

Of course this is only if lobbying this year doesn't work. Personally, I think that making a decision like this is stupid based on the fact that any car pre-2005 will need to update to the LSD option and whatever is changed for the 7hp. You are talking about thousands of dollars in upgrades for 2002-2004 cars that already have a place. Plus the fact that 2005's will be marginally better until the Jan 2005 builds arrive (Earliest mid Feb no?).

Follow the money trail and this might as well be a MINI sponsored rule change forcing anyone who wants to compete in SCCA events to spend a lot of money on Jan '05 build parts. In theory you are talking over $5k of parts and labor on a $20,000 car.

Personally, I need an '05 by November so I can't wait for the Jan build. This reclass based on a theoretical gain is keeping me from competing in SCCA events in the future. If enough people abstain from the events as a protest then they might just change the rules.

I don't know about you guys but making people spend an additional 25% to make the car competitive again seems dumb. That is like making Mini Cooper owners have to upgrade to the S parts.

Patrick

 

Rent a car for a few months! Its really no more expensive than owning if you find the right deal at Enterprise or elsewhere.

Also, the Cooper S IS 2 seconds behind DS on a 2 day event on many courses!!!!

 

Two threads on this subject have been merged on request.

 

Well I'm keeping my BMW so I guess when I say NEED I think most people call that WANT

I got a lot of Freescale Semiconductor (Motorola's semiconductor business that was spun off) shares at the $13 IPO price on Friday. At the end of it's 3rd trading day it is $14.75. That makes me NEED the MCS right there :-)

Patrick