Solo Bad cone calls at national events.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,535
Likes: 3
From: Mountain View, CA
Bad cone calls at national events.
I've seen cone issues at National tour events from several different angles now, so I thought it might make an interesting topic.
At the tour (and I'm presuming Nationals), the corner workers are tasked with keeping more precise records than I'm used to at local events. At local events, the guy with the radio calls in a cone to scoring, and that's that. At tour events, one person per station has to keep records. For each car that runs, they write down the car number and the class. This makes it especially important for your numbers and class letters to be easily visible (at a distance, at speed).
The corner worker keeping records has to record this information for each car, if the worker is not familiar with this procedure, they may not realize this and only note cars which have issues. Timing and scoring will probably radio a reminder to record all cars if they notice this is a problem.
Along with every car is a checkbox for "Clean" if the car passed without problems, this box will be checked and nothing else written. If a cone is downed, the cone number will be noted in the box for "Pylon number". This is another difference from local events, cones are individually numbered, so you can find out exactly which one was hit. The form also has a checkbox for DNF if you miss a cone. These corner sheets are collected by the sweep car twice for every run group.
As well as noting down all this information, the corner worker with the radio should also call this information in to scoring. This allows for early notification of a downed cone, the commentator can announce it and the live results can reflect the cone. The scoring person on the radio also keeps a log of incidents called in. He only notes down cars which have incidents and notes down which corner called in the incident.
After each half of the run group is finished, and the sweep car is sent out, the radio log is posted up at impound. They're on clipboards on the side of the trailer. Once timing and scoring is finished with the corner sheets, one copy of them are also made available at impound. They're put in books, one for each corner, the originals stay with timing and scoring.
If you're out running and you know you knock down a cone and the commentator mentions that you got a cone, then this is all merely interesting. If however you don't remember knocking down the cone, or the commentator never mentioned it, indicating a late call, then you may want to investigate further. The first stage in investigating the cone is to look at the radio logs. This should show your class/number and a note of which corner station called in the cone. You can then look in the corner books and find the more detailed notes. When I was working impound, we were told that it was our job to guide drivers through this process, at the last event I was at, the impound workers didn't seem to get this memo. You can recognize an impound worker as they're wearing a blue jacket. If asking an impound worker, I'd call this process "investigate" a cone to save confusion.
If when you investigate the cone there are several things which should cause a mental red flag for your suspicions. If the cone is not on the radio log, then that is suspicious, the corner worker did not think you had a cone at the time. This could be the cause of a late call, not being called in. If when you look at the corner sheet there is any apparent hesitation, this is also a mental red flag. In the picture you can see my run (94HS) was originally marked clean. Then the corner worker changed his mind and decided it wasn't and crossed out the clean checkbox. This in itself is grounds for being suspicious. You also see that the car following (15 STS) was initially credited with cone 512, but then the corner worker changed his mind, crossed that out and credited it to me instead. Both red flags.
Once you've examined the corner books and you're still not satisfied, either you see such red flags, or the corner sheets are just plain missing, you should be directed to go talk to timing and scoring in the trailer. At the events I was at this meant Sandi. She was chief steward at one and Operations Manager at the other. Whatever her job she was running the show. The official can look at their master copies of the radio log and corner sheet and see if there are any discrepancies. If there aren't, they will tell you that nothing more can be done about this. This is false, but I'll cover that later.
If there are obvious discrepancies in their audit, then they can investigate further. At San Diego Cathy was in charge of the corner log and all the workers for that corner were called to the trailer and asked about the cone in question. Whether they specifically remembered that cone being upset by that car. I don't know what the actual outcome of that investigation was, but they obviously have the power and willingness to look into such things further. But the records must indicate something for them to want to take this further.
If after all this, the official says the cone stands, they'll tell you there's nothing more you can do about this. You might also not be wanting to hold people in impound any longer. Cars are only released from impound once all the drivers agree that there are no issues with the result. I was under the impression that I was giving up my right to take things further by releasing the cars from impound, this is not the case.
You should be beware that the following is all based on my reading of the rules, I've cited the relevant sections. The forgoing was based on actual experience at National tour events. Contrary to what the official may have told you, there is at least one more step you can take. Though you should probably only do this if you're totally sure of your position, this is not going to win you any friends. You next option is to lodge a protest. in fact the chapter on protests in the rules starts off warning you to be careful of protesting. That things should "be conducted in sporting spirit" (8). You as a driver have a right to protest (8.1) "any decision, act, or omission of the organizers" (8.1), that would seem to cover mistakenly giving you a cone.
Lodiging a protest must be in writing, and must specify which section of the rules has been violated (8.2). It would seem that section 7.9.1 would be a good section of the rules to cite. This is the one which specifies that a cone must be upset or displaced to be a penalty.
You have to pay a protest fee, $25 at the tour and $80 at National. (8.2.1)
Crucially, you have half an hour after being released from impound to lodge the protest (8.2.2B). You do not give up your rights by releasing everyone from impound. This gives you half an hour to go check your video to see if you did knock down the specified cone. I didn't want to have people hang around in impound while I did that.
I was told by an event official that video evidence would not make any difference to them. However, that's the event official, not the protest committee. The protest is heard by a protest committee, they are charged with acting in a "fair, unbiased and timely manner" (8.4.1). It would seem that they could consider any evidence they want in the name of "fair"ness. I would make the point that this would cover video. I'd show them the timestamps off the card to show it has not been tampered with and is for the run in question. They're free to reject their evidence if they want. This would be part of the protestor "shall state their cases in person".
The protest committee can make whatever discussion they think is fair on the matter. If you're still not satisfied, you can appeal but that's an entirely different part of the rules (section 10) and hopefully would not need to go that far.
At the tour (and I'm presuming Nationals), the corner workers are tasked with keeping more precise records than I'm used to at local events. At local events, the guy with the radio calls in a cone to scoring, and that's that. At tour events, one person per station has to keep records. For each car that runs, they write down the car number and the class. This makes it especially important for your numbers and class letters to be easily visible (at a distance, at speed).
The corner worker keeping records has to record this information for each car, if the worker is not familiar with this procedure, they may not realize this and only note cars which have issues. Timing and scoring will probably radio a reminder to record all cars if they notice this is a problem.
Along with every car is a checkbox for "Clean" if the car passed without problems, this box will be checked and nothing else written. If a cone is downed, the cone number will be noted in the box for "Pylon number". This is another difference from local events, cones are individually numbered, so you can find out exactly which one was hit. The form also has a checkbox for DNF if you miss a cone. These corner sheets are collected by the sweep car twice for every run group.
As well as noting down all this information, the corner worker with the radio should also call this information in to scoring. This allows for early notification of a downed cone, the commentator can announce it and the live results can reflect the cone. The scoring person on the radio also keeps a log of incidents called in. He only notes down cars which have incidents and notes down which corner called in the incident.
After each half of the run group is finished, and the sweep car is sent out, the radio log is posted up at impound. They're on clipboards on the side of the trailer. Once timing and scoring is finished with the corner sheets, one copy of them are also made available at impound. They're put in books, one for each corner, the originals stay with timing and scoring.
If you're out running and you know you knock down a cone and the commentator mentions that you got a cone, then this is all merely interesting. If however you don't remember knocking down the cone, or the commentator never mentioned it, indicating a late call, then you may want to investigate further. The first stage in investigating the cone is to look at the radio logs. This should show your class/number and a note of which corner station called in the cone. You can then look in the corner books and find the more detailed notes. When I was working impound, we were told that it was our job to guide drivers through this process, at the last event I was at, the impound workers didn't seem to get this memo. You can recognize an impound worker as they're wearing a blue jacket. If asking an impound worker, I'd call this process "investigate" a cone to save confusion.
If when you investigate the cone there are several things which should cause a mental red flag for your suspicions. If the cone is not on the radio log, then that is suspicious, the corner worker did not think you had a cone at the time. This could be the cause of a late call, not being called in. If when you look at the corner sheet there is any apparent hesitation, this is also a mental red flag. In the picture you can see my run (94HS) was originally marked clean. Then the corner worker changed his mind and decided it wasn't and crossed out the clean checkbox. This in itself is grounds for being suspicious. You also see that the car following (15 STS) was initially credited with cone 512, but then the corner worker changed his mind, crossed that out and credited it to me instead. Both red flags.
Once you've examined the corner books and you're still not satisfied, either you see such red flags, or the corner sheets are just plain missing, you should be directed to go talk to timing and scoring in the trailer. At the events I was at this meant Sandi. She was chief steward at one and Operations Manager at the other. Whatever her job she was running the show. The official can look at their master copies of the radio log and corner sheet and see if there are any discrepancies. If there aren't, they will tell you that nothing more can be done about this. This is false, but I'll cover that later.
If there are obvious discrepancies in their audit, then they can investigate further. At San Diego Cathy was in charge of the corner log and all the workers for that corner were called to the trailer and asked about the cone in question. Whether they specifically remembered that cone being upset by that car. I don't know what the actual outcome of that investigation was, but they obviously have the power and willingness to look into such things further. But the records must indicate something for them to want to take this further.
If after all this, the official says the cone stands, they'll tell you there's nothing more you can do about this. You might also not be wanting to hold people in impound any longer. Cars are only released from impound once all the drivers agree that there are no issues with the result. I was under the impression that I was giving up my right to take things further by releasing the cars from impound, this is not the case.
You should be beware that the following is all based on my reading of the rules, I've cited the relevant sections. The forgoing was based on actual experience at National tour events. Contrary to what the official may have told you, there is at least one more step you can take. Though you should probably only do this if you're totally sure of your position, this is not going to win you any friends. You next option is to lodge a protest. in fact the chapter on protests in the rules starts off warning you to be careful of protesting. That things should "be conducted in sporting spirit" (8). You as a driver have a right to protest (8.1) "any decision, act, or omission of the organizers" (8.1), that would seem to cover mistakenly giving you a cone.
Lodiging a protest must be in writing, and must specify which section of the rules has been violated (8.2). It would seem that section 7.9.1 would be a good section of the rules to cite. This is the one which specifies that a cone must be upset or displaced to be a penalty.
You have to pay a protest fee, $25 at the tour and $80 at National. (8.2.1)
Crucially, you have half an hour after being released from impound to lodge the protest (8.2.2B). You do not give up your rights by releasing everyone from impound. This gives you half an hour to go check your video to see if you did knock down the specified cone. I didn't want to have people hang around in impound while I did that.
I was told by an event official that video evidence would not make any difference to them. However, that's the event official, not the protest committee. The protest is heard by a protest committee, they are charged with acting in a "fair, unbiased and timely manner" (8.4.1). It would seem that they could consider any evidence they want in the name of "fair"ness. I would make the point that this would cover video. I'd show them the timestamps off the card to show it has not been tampered with and is for the run in question. They're free to reject their evidence if they want. This would be part of the protestor "shall state their cases in person".
The protest committee can make whatever discussion they think is fair on the matter. If you're still not satisfied, you can appeal but that's an entirely different part of the rules (section 10) and hopefully would not need to go that far.
just to chime in from my brief experience at spring nats - there definitely is a lot more to keep track of at a national event. if everyone's looking in one direction it can be especially tough. but if they see a downed cone, and you were the last car to pass, they are to put it on you, period - even if they didn't see you do it. that's just the way it works there. that's why you absolutely have to stop to point out downed cones at a national event. if it's down before you get there, stop and point. if it's down after, it's yours.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post