OK Folks,

Before you ask, YES, I have done several searches on Swaybars, but none of them answered my very simple question.

For solid daily driving, and moderate auto-x use, which Rear Sway bar should I be looking at ?

I've read good things about them all, so now I'm asking for your thoughts.

Alta 22mm - Good, but only 2 positions
Madness 22mm - Good, and has 3 positions
H-sport 25.5mm - apparently the stiffest, and has 3 positions

Any and all comments/recommendations would be appreciated !!

BB

 

I'm happy with my H-Sport competition. I'm in the middle hole so should I find the need I can go tighter or looser. What more can I ask?

 

I think with the factory springs or H-sport springs, the 22mm would do fine.
Im on the soft setting right now, but I think Im going to the stiffer setting
now that I got a good feel of the swaybar and know wat to expect.

:smile:

 

is it necessary to replace both front and rear, or is the rear all that is necessary.I was just at the H sport sight looking at the particulars for this mod. and kinda got turned off to the possibility of doing this myself, especially the fronts.

 

I'm certainly no expert, but the general concensus on front Swaybars is that the stock bar (on the MCS Sport Suspension) is good enough. You get way more benefit from the rear sway.


Again, I'm no expert.....

BB

 

rear is probably all you need. do that first and see what you think.

 

Our MCS has SS+ susp. package. I do want to replace the rear aswell. I think the best one and the one I will get is the H-sport. Its not much more in cost and is a hell of a lot lighter.:smile: take care, James

 

The simple answer is-
If you have an MC then 19mm rear bar is fine. No need for a front swaybar.
If you have a MCS then 22mm rear bar is fine. No need for a front swaybar.

Which bar you choose can be choosen for-
Adjustability- three holes are better than two unless the holes you have work just fine, then it doesn't matter much. So if you are choosing the firmest setting then it doesn't matter but if you want the middle and soft settings then choose the three hole.
Weight- You do shave some weight (almost four pounds) using the H-sport 25.5mm bar but it is thin walled so don't think it is extra thick steel. So even though you have a lighter bar the effective sway bar rate is the same as the 22 mm bar. The higher cost (about $30) offsets it's weight savings and for a few pounds it is not a big deal for street and basic autocross. Your choice.

Other good rear swaybars-
RDR from Helix13 in black
http://helix13.com/html/products/suspension.html
H-sport 19mm three hole bar (best for MC not MCS)
http://www.webbmotorsports.com/suspension.php
(Randy carries them all-call him to ask about differences)

Color-
They come in different colors in case you didn't notice.

On autocross- You need to think before you mod. Do you want to drive in a stock class or a mod class. If you are new to SCCA solo II autocross then you might want to start in H-stock if you have an MC or G-stock if you have an MCS. These classes don't allow aftermarket rear swaybars as legal upgrades. Doing so would put you into STS/STX class which are more competitive. So if you want to have a fighting chance and doing very well then don't add a rear swaybar for autocross. If you are planning a big upgrade set with full suspension and wheels, etc then STS for the MC or STX for the MCS is fine. Pulley upgrade puts the MCS into Street Mod (SM).

For street driving- you won't really tell much difference with the rear swaybar for any straightline performance, only when you corner hard at speed and then the bar will help to reduce understeer but only to a point. How your MINI handles will depend on your driving style, the rest of your suspension, your tires and air pressure as these all will affect understeer.
The bar doesn't affect ride stiffness.

I'd say that if you have an MCS then-
Madness (red) three hole $189
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...PROD&ProdID=59
This sway bar features 3 mounting*positions for fine-tuning. Rate increase over stock, Hole position 1: +228%, Hole position 2: +297% Hole position 3: +384%

RDR (black) three hole

H-sport Competition three hole for $221 (not bad if you can get it for that)
Now Powder Coated Black
Rear: +226%, +294% & +383%

Shipping not bad by ground but by air it is horrible.
It's not too difficult to install yourself. No alignment needed.
Try the softer or middle setting first, even for autocross. You're trying to get neutral or minimal understeer.

 

I got my H&R 19mm 2-position adjustable rear bar from jscspeed.com about a month ago when it was on sale for $155. Cost under $170 with shipping.

I beg to differ on the point that a 19mm bar is insufficient for a MCS; first, 3mm larger in diameter is nearly 20% bigger than stock. What that translates into as far as rate increase, I don't know, but I can 4-wheel drift with this bar at its outboard (looser) setting. Stiffer setting and I can really get her to rotate. Then again I don't do much track driving (will be doing occasional auto-x and driving school), but this is plenty. Someday I'll move up the the H-sport, but until then I'm pretty happy with the H&R bar.

Plus it's a snap to install - it's not a huge bar like the H-sport comp.

M

 

Sway bars cause different handling change on each end of the car.

On the front, stiffer increases understeer, weaker decreases understeer.

On the rear, stiffer decreases understeer, weaker increases understeer.

Given that a factory Mini tends to underteer, stiffening the front would make the understeer worse. This is why you typically only want to stiffen the rear bar.

When I was researching I found a post that gave the rear bar stiffness in order with the weakest being first and stiffest being last. It did not cover all bars, but maybe it will help you as much as it helped me:

Cooper
Cooper SS
H Sport, Sport 19MM (this one is hollow)
H&R 18MM
Alta and H&R 19MM
RDR 20MM

Another consideration is the stiffness of the rear springs. Springs and sway bars have the same effectiveness on handling. Stiffer springs will have the same effect on the same axle as would a stiffer sway bar. So, if you have super stiff springs, you won't need a sway bar as stiff as if you had super soft springs.

When choosing a bar do not take the approach that "if a little is good, more is better." If you go too far, the car will get loose and squirrelly.

Also, a bar with at least two end link holes is good and three is better. Changing from one hole to the next is a SIGNIFICANT change in effective bar stiffness. Changing from one hole to the next can be done very quickly and easily. This is much easier than changing an entire bar, and certainly less expensive.

Good luck

 

I have found that there is such a thing as too hard. I had H-Sport Spring and a madness Bar. It was just too tight causing drastic over steer. Especially when running race tires. I have since changed to the UUC 19mm bar and have since decreased my lap times and increased cornering ability. You need to figure out what springs you want and then choose sway bar.

I guess that I'm saying don't just go as stiff as possible thinking it will be the best as it is not always beneficial.

 

BB,

In answer to your original question you can make any of them work. I had an RDR and then an H-Sport (it's a long story.) They're both great bars with their relative strengths.

RDR
At the middle setting it's neutral and you *really* have to push it to get it to drift, but it will (like push really hard and abruptly lift.) It's very forgiving in this setting and if you're on unfamiliar roads that's where I'd want to run it.

On the stiffest setting it has trailing throttle oversteer but is still forgiving. I ran the dragon at the last mini get-together on full stiff (never got around to returning to the middle setting before going.) You definitely don't want to go into blind turns too hot on this setting, and yet still I had no problem running the dragon at midnight like this.

For that reason it's a bar with good tuneability for what you're looking for.

H-Sport
On the middle it's a neutral feeling in that you can pretty easily throttle steer. My supposition is that this is a little bit less than full stiff on the RDR, and I really like the way it feels.

From what I'm told (still haven't had a chance to try it) good AutoXers will even go full stiff for maximum rotation for a tight course.

For fit & finish the nod would go the h-sport
For impact on road driving the nod would go to the RDR (which is obviously not as taught.) The impact on road driving is so minimal though that I hesitate to mention it.

In short, at the moment I prefer the h-sport. I'll report back after I've had time to evaluate it (still haven't been to the mtns or autoX since I've put it in.)

Jeff

 

This is a good point.
MCS comes with a rear 16mm bar. A 19mm swaybar with adjustment holes IS an improvement and if you want a little stiffer and a good lower price and you like the feel of it then great. It certainly works well enough for the MC with or without Sport suspension plus.

I'd say be careful when trying to use the 22mm bar on the MC and certainly start with the softest setting you can first. See how things handle for your driving style. It's a bigger jump from stock MC to with a 22mm rear bar.

If you only do street driving then the 19mm or 20mm bars are viable for any MINI. If you want to do autocross and track then up to 22mm is fine esp with all the adjustment holes (3 works well) in an MCS.

And yes the whole suspension needs to be considered from the springs to the shocks, to both swaybars to the wheels and tires. Think of the bar as working with the rest of the suspension to give you more adjustment and balance for the handling you feel comfortable with.

 

I certainly don't want to dissuade anyone else from commenting, but I just wanted to say that these are exceptionally informative posts.

Thanks for the feedback !

BB

 

We have the Alta 22mm bar on our MCS with stock springs/shocks. This car is a daily driver and regular autocrosser. The Alta bar is set on "soft" and it makes a huge difference in both street and track driving. It is relatively easy to rotate the car and the tail WILL come out. Randy Webb agreed with me that it was probably best to keep it set on soft for street and faster autox events, with maybe going to "hard" setting for extremely tight autox courses.

I also beg to differ about bars not affecting ride, i.e. compliance. There IS a slightly firmer feel to the rear suspension compliance after adding the Alta.

I'm very happy witht this setup.

 

I have the original madness 19mm...2 position.... rear sway bar ( the one manufactured before the issue with the incorrect hole spacing).... on my 2002 MCS.
It has been on the softer of the two setting for nearly 2 years now.
I've had to remove it (2) times to re-grease it.

I use my MCS for street driving and this bar serves my MCS...well

Peace,
D 8)

 

I like the H Sport mine is set on the middle hole as well. Another nice feature is that the H Sport has grease fittings.

 

I run my 22mm alta on firm on my 2003 MCS ( running Falken 215-45-16 on xlites)and still get a little understeer on the autocross course. I think it's OK on firm round town too, but it is a lot stiffer, for sure going over bumps. I have otherwise stock suspension, before the factory softened the shocks. 7 - 8,000 mi with no squeaks/regreasing.

 

Here is an interesting item in the sway bar discussion. NASA has anounce a Mini Challenge race series with some spec components for both MC and MCS.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/news/ra...challenge.html

If you go to the regulations page

http://northamericanbavarianracing.c...IChallenge.htm

You will see that they spec out the H-sport comp bar (25.5) for the MC and the sport bar (19) for the MCS.

Any ideas why?

Andy

 

Maybe it's a typo or a dyslexic mechanic. Maybe it's on purpose.

The H-sport comp bar is equivalent to a 22mm bar but lighter so it could easily work well with an MCS and the 19mm is fine for the MC or MCS.

Here are the MINI race event specs:

For MC
Springs H-Sport coil springs
Struts/Shocks MINI OEM
Sway bars-
H-Sport (22800F) 27mm adjustable front bar
H-Sport (22810R) 25.5mm adjustable rear bar

For MCS
Springs/Struts/Shocks SPAX RSX-580 suspension kit
Sway bars-
H-Sport (22800F) 27mm adjustable front bar
H-Sport (22800R) 19mm adjustable rear bar


So since the MC gets just lowering springs maybe they wanted a little firmer bar but put it on soft to middle setting. Note that both MC and MCS get the H-sport 27mm adjustable front swaybar.

For the MCS it gets SPAX suspension kit so the 19mm bar matched with the H-sport adjustable front bar.

It might just work. Mostly you have to think about balance and what complete suspension setup would work for the event. Most of us don't touch the front sway bar at all.

They run with only TOYO Proxy RA-1 tires
15x7" rims with 205/50-15 tires for MC
17x7" rims with 205/40-17 tires for MCS

 

I have been holding back on suspension choices for my MC. I have been thinking of going with their specs since I love tracking. I think I will double check and make sure the rear bar is as listed before proceeding. I think you're right about balancing. They probably know what they are talking about.

Should be fun.

Andy

 

I wouldn't buy anything but H-sport. The bar is tubluar, has grease fitting and 3 position settings. No one else has that combination. You also need to consider what suspension mods you want to do down the road. H-Sport has an entire line of front/rear bars, springs, camber/caster products that are all designed to work together. You don't know what your going to get if you mix A's springs with B's swaybars. That was one of the biggest selling points to me with H-sport, I could get all the other products from them that match.

I think others mentioned it above, but don't think because the H-sport bar is thicker that it's stiffer. It is tubular so it will be a bigger diameter than a solid bar.

 

Sorry to keep bragging about my rear sway bar, but I am so amazed and pleased with the results. When I first drove a Cooper I would have described its handling as "neat." With the rear sway bar change I describe the handling as "AN ABSOLUTE KICK IN THE BUTT THRILL."

That's how much improvement there is. What I don't understand is why they don't put a similar rear bar in the car at the factory. I can't tell any difference in ride stiffness. I just can't find the downside to a stiffer rear sway bar. For the factory, there would be no difference in cost. I'm stumped at their decision.

Several people on this site said that a rear sway bar was the most significant single modification you could make. That's one reason I did it. The only thing I think they might be in error about would be their under statement.

Enjoy,

 

Mini-Madness 22mm rear bar: +228%, +297%, and +384%

H-Sport Competition 25.5mm rear bar: +226%, +294%, and +383%

H-Sport Sport 19mm rear bar: +54%, +88%, and +128%

I assume that these percentages show the relationship to the stock sport suspension rear bar.

What is the relationship between the sport suspension rear bar and the sport suspension plus rear bar? Or phrased differently, what is the relationship of the Mini-Madness and H-Sport bars to the SS+ bar?

 

The MC SS+ bar and the stock MCS bar are very similar. Maybe not the same part number but close. Maybe the MCS bar is a little stiffer, but I would count them as being roughly the same stiffness.

The Mini-Madness 22mm rear bar and H-Sport Competition 25.5mm rear bar show numbers that are virtually the same because the lighter weight H-sport bar has the relative stiffness of a "22mm" bar, hence we would expect the same numbers. You have a higher cost for the 4.5 pound weight savings. These bars are triple to quadruple the stiffness of a stock MCS bar.

The H-Sport Sport 19mm rear bar by comparison is only a little stiffer than the stock MCS bar. But it all depends on the rest of your suspension upgrades how everything would work together.This bar offers up to a little over double the stiffness of the stock MCS bar.