So the green mini went to Washington today. Andy and Mike were kind enough to meet me there with their ProSolo class winner GS Celica shod with a set of Z2s. Armed with a fresh (like not even scrubbed in) set of Rivals (sadly on holeys, still deciding if its worth buying the 15x6.5s), we went racing. And the results... well... we have a data point.

First off, I am not loving the Rivals (this is my first time on them with fwd). They seem to want a very specific slip angle to work well. They don't like to trail brake, they don't like to power out of corners. I was told they get a bit better with age, but the it was frustrating to try to keep them in their happy slip angle while putting the car where you want it. I'm sure some of this can be cured with practice, but I felt like I left mountains of time out there since they just did not want to turn in on a few of the Fedex's slippery corners. However, they do transition well, and hook hard off the line.

I completely guessed on the setup. I started 40-40 psi (F-R) with the shocks at their Hoosier spec 7 clicks. By the end of the day I had the shocks down to 3 (couldn't get heat in the rears and was compensating), and 33-40 psi. I think it still kinda sucked.

When I first saw the map, I thought I had a good shot. Walking it was a different story. Uphill launch, with a kink into a sweeping right across the lot. At the end of that element was a downhill offset into a crossover into a horrid off camber showcase turnaround that exited uphill. Sweep right, then left into a 3 wallom section ending in a tight pinched right (had to brake as you entered the last wallom). This again was a slow climb uphill into a medium speed right into a flat foot 5 cone slalom over the top of the lot. After that, there was a second 3 pin slalom offset to the end that required a heavy brake jab to make it work. This sent you into another tight pinched right. A swing left after that exit put you towards the finish but there was another kink (but could be done flat) before the lights.

I think the minis were at a distinct disadvantage with the 3 uphill climbs. I could have updated my facebook status while waiting for the car to make them. The off camber showcase turn was a struggle as well and a place that the crash-bolt-having Celica could make some time. I flew through the slalom and the finish section but I don't think it was enough to win on its own. The street tires also neuter the Mini's awesome brakes. Were the course flat... might have been a different ballgame. But now I'm bench racing again and I was trying to put some of that to bed today.

So, after three runs, I was about .75 behind Mike and a tenth ahead of Andy (raw). I ended up overdriving the last run while Mike knocked it out of the park, notching a 59.283. As a note, I managed 15th in pax, so I wasn't driving badly, and part of me feels like I'm making excuses for the car.

The final tally:
Celica (Mike): 59.283
Celica (Andy): 60.427
Green Mini (Me): 60.559
Red R50 (Marshall): 61.269

Not a glorious result. Sadly I don't think the day answered as many questions as I'd hoped. Despite the clobbering administered by Mike, I'm not ready to write off the car's chances, and I think if my co-driver had been able to make it, he might have been able to get inside a second at least. Based on this single data point, I don't think the Mini is hopeless, but it is definitely no longer an overdog. G Street may be wildly course dependent, with the ST dominating power courses, the Mini killing slalom heavy ones, and the Celica being more of the middle ground.

They will be coming up to play in Philly after nationals, and I may be borrowing their Z2s to try as well. If not, might see if I can dig up a set of RS-3s. I think 15x6.5s are going to be a must, but that testing will probably have to wait til spring.

Also, FWIW, we raw timed a bone stock Focus ST.

Will eventually post vids.

 

For your first time on the tires, you are not that far behind at all for a 60 sec course. You are definitely within striking distance.

I still have my 215/45/17 RS3s from last season if you want to try those. But the Rivals are better in pretty much every single way, IMHO.

 

Mold release made my Z1's feel like going to a street tire was the biggest mistake in history. Once that stuff cleans off, it'll be a different tire... Remember driving Jeff's MZ2 at the Waterfest school?

Street tires like to be run on a softer car. From what I heard, Jeff Jacobs put all that blingy JCW stuff on his car and he said it ruined the inherent balance of the thing.

Not that the Celica is a powerhouse, but the MINI hates off-camber stuff just as much as it hates uphill stuff. Redo this experiment when you can run on a flat lot in Philly (don't use Wells Fargo as a site for part 2 of the test)... Or invite them to an NNJR event (my tires are close to being done, but I can be another data point).

Not that it matters to some, but was that 59.2 repeatable, or was it a fluke? I know that fastest lap wins, but if that time was an outlier and the remainder of his runs were slower, then you know with scrubbed tires and time to learn, you can close that gap.

And this will make things interesting. Many people got too comfortable with the MINI being the overdog for the better part of a decade. Sure, I bought one, but I've always wanted one... And as I have said, my 2006 Civic LX beat Austin and Bellom plenty of times. Competitive diversity is good and so is being a diverse driver. I can hop from Kevin Sensi's 500hp CP Camaro to my 120hp MINI and back again without flinching. Adapt to the challenge, that's part of the fun!

I like the Z1's enough that I'm going to stick with the ZII for next year on the 16x6.5" wheel. I figured I have them and with a 3rd kid on the way, I need to conserve costs if I'm still going to be able to fund a decent season.

 

I think I'm within striking distance, but Andy and Mike haven't spent a lot of time on their street tires either. Theirs were at least scrubbed in though.

I don't think it was a terribly fluky run, he was taking time off all morning. Then again, so was I until the last run.

The Mini as an overdog was nice... I kinda got used to being able to show up to an event and know that its all on the driver to decide the event. Theres no weird tricks or course dependencies, just go out and drive, and may the best driver win. Hopping from car to car is something I've never been good at, although I'm improving a little in that department. It usually takes me a bit of time to work up to major car changes. I trust the Mini implicitly on Hoosiers and can just focus on the course. That wasn't the case on the Rivals yet, most of the corners were like "is this gonna work?"

I'm gonna disagree on the stiffer setup on the street tires. God's chariot and plenty of other ST cars run insane spring rates and do great. I think perhaps some shock settings may change, but I don't think pulling the JCW stuff off will make the car better.

 

I disagree with your disagreement. The STC guys have stiff springs, but they also have camber. Street tires love camber. With that said, they also hate too much camber.

The Rivals hate higher pressures. 32-37 seems to be about right, even though it goes against everything I've ever learned running ST and RT cars. The ZI seems to like 40's and up. YMMV on this.

The rivals hate to be pinched. And you pinched them hard. The 6.5" rims will be closer to their ideal happy spot at 15x7. I think you'll like them better whence the shoulders get a bit more squared off.

The Rivals especially need miles before they are great. Mine took 2 schools before I loved them. Now the car won't rotate and pushes like a dump truck it sticks so well. They feel very squishy and fluid out of the box. They tighten up after a few regular events. leave them on the car and drive it every day. you'll feel when they get right. they will start to thump like Hoosiers under aggressive cornering. Then they are ready.

I still think the Mini is every bit as good as the Celica. Even though I jumped camp (BMW NA's fault not mine), I still feel the Mini is a dominant car. The 15's may not be right for it, maybe it's 16's or (gulp) 17". The 16" ZIi is a better overall "fit" for the car size wise, but you'd have to explore your options. I'd stick next season out if I were you. Pick up the 6.5" . A quick eBay search found a set for $150 plus shipping. They are ugly and on the heavy side, but cheap enough for testing.
Good luck if you are heading out West, if not see you in 2 weeks.

Jeff

 

I'm definitely going to give the rivals another shot, I was just frustrated with them having driven fairly well and still not being where I wanted to be time wise vs GS. I think the car at least showed enough to justify a set of 15x6.5s, just maybe not the $400/corner (but 9 lb) SSRs. It'd be worth a test somewhere since we already have 16s, but I can't imagine going up in height is going to be helpful, we are acceleration challenged as it is. Maybe if I lived in LA and ran El Toro regularly, but not on the east coast.

 

Are 15x6.5 wheels legal for stock? I thought that the only stock MINI 15" wheels available were only 5.5" wide...

 

The new proposal will allow a +/- 1" wheel diameter change.

So a 16x6.5 can become a 15x6.5 or 17x6.5

The 15x5.5 can become 14x5.5 or 16x5.5

For obvious reasons, the 15x6.5 is rapidly becoming the possible overnight sensation for good width and low overall height...

 

Interesting... Or 16x7 then. Very interesting...

 

Is/was there a 17x7 factory option for the normally aspirated hardtop? If not, then 16x7 is not permissable.

I'll be interested in an update on the GS vs. HS numbers after the tires are scrubbed. Thanks for posting.

 

The guy with the user name aklucsarits has a Cooper S (DS) that he currently runs in RTF against me. The Cooper S has a 17x7 option so it can become a 16x7 option if the new allowance passes.

 

I thought that a 17x7 wheel was a factory option for all R56 MINIs. (But yes, mine is a Cooper S). 16x7 could open up some very nice options like 225/45/16 or 225/50/16, if it could fit under there....

 

17s were definitely an option on the later Justas. I know I could have ordered mine with them. That said, ya'll are forgetting the gearing advantage of the shorter wheel/tire combo.

Also, know anyone with an MR-S? I need to borrow their rear wheels.

 

Oh no. I'm well aware of the advantage. I'm concerned about the disadvantage of a significantly (about an inch) shorter wheel/tire combo... An increased tendency to light up the inside front wheel.

Do you not have that issue?

 

It is for 2013, we got Bertie with 17x7 wheels, partly just to prove we could. It wasn't an option for some of the earlier years as far as I can tell. It wasn't an option for 2007 with Tristan. I thought it was, but when I was buying Tristan I wasn't interested in 17" wheels, and my researches have failed to find any proof that it was (and evidence that it wasn't).

 

Right you are. It's even on the configurator. Thanks.

 

OK.. So a 16x7 no gets put into the mix for Justas. Plenty of options if this all comes to fruition.

 

I wouldn't say we have tons of inside wheelspin, but the Hoosiers help in that department.

 

Nick,

Thanks for the post....interesting stuff indeed.

My thoughts -

Tire pressures: I actually like less rear pressure on my car. With a 25mm hollow bar set in the middle, it will rotate even with relatively low (sub 35psi) rear pressure. I did take out some camber and add some toe out in the rear. My guess is that with 40psi in the rears, you're taking away rear grip that could be used to trail brake, etc.

Course: I don't see any course dependency between the celica and the mini. The mini is only about 1" narrower (which does help in slaloms), but the celica will have more ultimate grip due to the camber (which also helps some in slaloms).

Surface: I didn't see where you stated what type of surface you ran on, but I'm assuming it was asphalt. My experience has been that rivals and RS3's like concrete more than dunlops do (Z1 and ZII). Dunlops seem to be more on par with the rivals and such on asphalt lots. As an aside, I've also noticed that street tires do much, much better relative to r-comps on asphalt surfaces. Here in Detroit area we have some asphalt and some concrete. R tire guys always do much better on index at the concrete sites.

Wheels: I do think you will pick up some time going to 6.5" wide wheels. Hard to say how much. Probably depends on the course, but I'd think that a few tenths on a 60 second course is realistic. I do not think it will make anywhere near a 1 second difference.

Overall: About what I was expecting. The celica is a little bit better in every respect, which leads to a several tenth advantage. The mini is within spitting distance, but a well prepped and driven celica will (should?) always be faster. SRT-4 ACR or Focus ST will be the cars to have on power friendly courses.

Would be fun to see you guys do some car swapping between runs to help mitigate the driver as a source of variation.