H Stock HS AX - 97 Civic Hatchback vs R56 Mini Cooper Base
HS AX - 97 Civic Hatchback vs R56 Mini Cooper Base
HS War! I laid this topic in my personal build journal but I thought I'd post it here to get a little more input - which car, totally stock, has the advantage in this matchup? Before you jump the gun, keep in mind the Mini is not built to nationally competitive spec:
We will both be on the same tires (though mine wider) and same brake pads. Similar experience level for drivers. I'd just like to have a good discussion on how the Mini overcomes its disadvantages, namely the weight - 300 lbs is significant - i.e., if there was a similar FWD hatch that weighed 2900 lbs but had 140hp, we'd easily give the nod to the Mini - yet it doesn't apply for the Civic vs Mini discussion -
Pros for 1997 Civic Hatch:
- 2,250 lbs
- Wider, lower, wider track
- Double wishbone front suspension
- Faster acceleration (tested 20-40mph, Civic faster by 0.7s) despite longer gear ratio (reaches 67mph in 2nd)
Cons:
- No ABS
- Slower steering rack
- Rear drum brakes
- Age on components
- 185mm width tread
----------------------------------
Pros for the Mini Cooper base:
- Up to date suspension, stiffer (Sport) suspension
- Shorter wheelbase (?)
- ABS, larger brakes
Cons:
- ~300lb!! weight penalty
- Sunroof
To me, it seems difficult to overcome the weight penalty - it definitely hurts in acceleration, and we've yet to see in braking. I may have him in the corners thanks to my stiff suspension, though double wishbone is no joke. I think if I had put a blank of the names of what these two cars were, we'd all give it to the Civic - I'm sure most here will give it to the Mini thanks to its past success - is there an x factor with the Mini I'm missing?
I'll post some portions of the discussion that already went on in my thread below:
We will both be on the same tires (though mine wider) and same brake pads. Similar experience level for drivers. I'd just like to have a good discussion on how the Mini overcomes its disadvantages, namely the weight - 300 lbs is significant - i.e., if there was a similar FWD hatch that weighed 2900 lbs but had 140hp, we'd easily give the nod to the Mini - yet it doesn't apply for the Civic vs Mini discussion -
Pros for 1997 Civic Hatch:
- 2,250 lbs
- Wider, lower, wider track
- Double wishbone front suspension
- Faster acceleration (tested 20-40mph, Civic faster by 0.7s) despite longer gear ratio (reaches 67mph in 2nd)
Cons:
- No ABS
- Slower steering rack
- Rear drum brakes
- Age on components
- 185mm width tread
----------------------------------
Pros for the Mini Cooper base:
- Up to date suspension, stiffer (Sport) suspension
- Shorter wheelbase (?)
- ABS, larger brakes
Cons:
- ~300lb!! weight penalty
- Sunroof
To me, it seems difficult to overcome the weight penalty - it definitely hurts in acceleration, and we've yet to see in braking. I may have him in the corners thanks to my stiff suspension, though double wishbone is no joke. I think if I had put a blank of the names of what these two cars were, we'd all give it to the Civic - I'm sure most here will give it to the Mini thanks to its past success - is there an x factor with the Mini I'm missing?
I'll post some portions of the discussion that already went on in my thread below:
Last edited by kyoo; May 3, 2013 at 10:23 AM.
Portions of previously discussed:
Is that weight verified? That seems a bit optimistic.
They weren't nearly as competitive as the EF chassis even when they were new. The R50s beat pretty much everything in the class when the came out and on most courses a R56 is faster than a R50.
Its probably a drivers race, it is HS after all. But I wouldn't underestimate that tire advantage either. 185s are like a bicycle tire.
They weren't nearly as competitive as the EF chassis even when they were new. The R50s beat pretty much everything in the class when the came out and on most courses a R56 is faster than a R50.
Its probably a drivers race, it is HS after all. But I wouldn't underestimate that tire advantage either. 185s are like a bicycle tire.
2,222 is the official weight, lets say 2,250 #s but he's got no power steering, windows, a/c, etc. so it probably is the 2,222 number - on the other hand, my particular Mini with sunroof is probably close to 2,600 #s.
Do you know exactly why the EK class wasn't particularly fast? It seems like its got all the winning ingredients - light weight, decent-ish gearing, doublewishbone front suspension, low, wide, etc.
FYI, we each did a 20-40mph test - the Mini did it in about 4.3s, the Civic in about 3.6. I have to imagine that, with the same brakes and carrying 350lbs less, the car will also brake faster than the Mini. The suspension and overall grip may be to my advantage, but one thing I've learned when it comes to AX is that weight very nearly trumps all
I'm not "worried," I'm just playing devil's advocate to find where the Mini has an advantage strictly from a car to car perspective. I wouldn't be surprised, btw though, if we see an uprising of Mazda2's (100hp, ~2200lbs) at Nationals this year and next in HS. Like I said, just as a comparison, we ran 2nd gear 20-40's (not scientific) - he ran ~3.6s consistently, and I ran 4.3s consistently. No "driver" skill here, just mash throttle start timer. And yes I was in sport mode. I was particularly surprised given how long the Civic's 2nd gear is (reaches 67mph) but that's weight for you - power/weight is a little deceiving IMO. Think about it this way - the Mini has an additional 10hp to move an additional 350#s - not insignificant.
And yea, stock suspension, despite being double-wishbone, must be lacking - either that or the strict wheel restriction for stock class that limits those Civics to some pretty narrow options. Whatever the reason, it seems the Mini, despite what the cars add up to on paper, should be able to out-handle the Civic. Maybe the multilink rear suspension is helping me out in that regard.
Again, I'm not trying to say the Civic is better than the Mini, anything like that - I'm just trying to brainstorm where exactly the Mini will have its advantages. Maybe the multi-link rear suspension keeps the rear geometry in check better
Do you know exactly why the EK class wasn't particularly fast? It seems like its got all the winning ingredients - light weight, decent-ish gearing, doublewishbone front suspension, low, wide, etc.
FYI, we each did a 20-40mph test - the Mini did it in about 4.3s, the Civic in about 3.6. I have to imagine that, with the same brakes and carrying 350lbs less, the car will also brake faster than the Mini. The suspension and overall grip may be to my advantage, but one thing I've learned when it comes to AX is that weight very nearly trumps all
According to Wikipedia, the Civic has 106hp. That gives the Civic a 4% power/weight advantage, hardly worth worrying about. There's a whole bunch of HS cars which have a better power/weight than the MINI, its still the MINI that dominates. I'm quite used to running with higher horse power cars, and usually beating them. If you're worried about it, the thing which will defeat you is yourself.
If the engine's anything like the 93 engine I was used to, it didn't make much power until you really wound it up. So to use all that power the Civic would have to manage the revs, keep it cooking, and that probably means changing down into first, a lot. The MINI had a much wider power band, which started lower in the rev range. Just because the headline number is bigger, doesn't mean its all usable.
Also, if its dominating STC, it'd be thanks to the suspension changes you can make in ST. As noted above the stock suspension is a little lacking.
If the engine's anything like the 93 engine I was used to, it didn't make much power until you really wound it up. So to use all that power the Civic would have to manage the revs, keep it cooking, and that probably means changing down into first, a lot. The MINI had a much wider power band, which started lower in the rev range. Just because the headline number is bigger, doesn't mean its all usable.
Also, if its dominating STC, it'd be thanks to the suspension changes you can make in ST. As noted above the stock suspension is a little lacking.
I'm not "worried," I'm just playing devil's advocate to find where the Mini has an advantage strictly from a car to car perspective. I wouldn't be surprised, btw though, if we see an uprising of Mazda2's (100hp, ~2200lbs) at Nationals this year and next in HS. Like I said, just as a comparison, we ran 2nd gear 20-40's (not scientific) - he ran ~3.6s consistently, and I ran 4.3s consistently. No "driver" skill here, just mash throttle start timer. And yes I was in sport mode. I was particularly surprised given how long the Civic's 2nd gear is (reaches 67mph) but that's weight for you - power/weight is a little deceiving IMO. Think about it this way - the Mini has an additional 10hp to move an additional 350#s - not insignificant.
And yea, stock suspension, despite being double-wishbone, must be lacking - either that or the strict wheel restriction for stock class that limits those Civics to some pretty narrow options. Whatever the reason, it seems the Mini, despite what the cars add up to on paper, should be able to out-handle the Civic. Maybe the multilink rear suspension is helping me out in that regard.
Again, I'm not trying to say the Civic is better than the Mini, anything like that - I'm just trying to brainstorm where exactly the Mini will have its advantages. Maybe the multi-link rear suspension keeps the rear geometry in check better
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Having owned a 1993 Civic DX Coupe for almost 12 years (bought new) I can tell you, unequivocally, that the MINI would rape the Civic on an autocross course.
If you truly keep it apples-to-apples and bone stock, the Civic has lighter weight, and better suspension geometry along with bulletproof motors and transmissions.
But the brakes suck. The lack of ABS and EBD hampers the ability to be aggressive with the Civic under braking.
The 13x5 wheels are small, even compared to the 15x5.5 the MINI offers standard.
The steering ratio is slow enough that someone accustomed to 1960's domestic car steering racks wouldn't feel out of place.
The chassis was soft, enough so that my car, while autocrossed extensively from 1994 until 2005 when I sold it, had ripples on the tops of the front fenders from flex. I've seen everyday drivers with the same issue, so it wasn't just racing that caused this.
The OEM springs were soft enough that you could compress them by hand and not need a spring compressor when changing shocks, especially out back.
That's why my car never ran in Stock. CSP --> STS --> FSP --> STX --> SM
If you truly keep it apples-to-apples and bone stock, the Civic has lighter weight, and better suspension geometry along with bulletproof motors and transmissions.
But the brakes suck. The lack of ABS and EBD hampers the ability to be aggressive with the Civic under braking.
The 13x5 wheels are small, even compared to the 15x5.5 the MINI offers standard.
The steering ratio is slow enough that someone accustomed to 1960's domestic car steering racks wouldn't feel out of place.
The chassis was soft, enough so that my car, while autocrossed extensively from 1994 until 2005 when I sold it, had ripples on the tops of the front fenders from flex. I've seen everyday drivers with the same issue, so it wasn't just racing that caused this.
The OEM springs were soft enough that you could compress them by hand and not need a spring compressor when changing shocks, especially out back.
That's why my car never ran in Stock. CSP --> STS --> FSP --> STX --> SM
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Oh, and my car weighed about 2320 in autocross trim (nothing in trunk, 1/4 tank of gas) while it still had the D15 in it. So, the delta between my 1993 Civic and my 2012 MINI (no sunroof and no options other than cloth sport seats, Bluetooth, and Sport suspension) is a touch over 100lbs. and it has better brakes, a better steering rack, and stiff springs, relatively speaking.
For SM the Civic had a B16 with the Type-R LSD transmission but by then the car was 2180 in race trim because of all the other stuff you could do, as in I took out the radio and A/C completely and put the light seats from a delSol in the car among other things.
Stock Civics SUCK. Properly modified ones, like the one I had, are sublime.
For SM the Civic had a B16 with the Type-R LSD transmission but by then the car was 2180 in race trim because of all the other stuff you could do, as in I took out the radio and A/C completely and put the light seats from a delSol in the car among other things.
Stock Civics SUCK. Properly modified ones, like the one I had, are sublime.
Having owned a 1993 Civic DX Coupe for almost 12 years (bought new) I can tell you, unequivocally, that the MINI would rape the Civic on an autocross course.
If you truly keep it apples-to-apples and bone stock, the Civic has lighter weight, and better suspension geometry along with bulletproof motors and transmissions.
But the brakes suck. The lack of ABS and EBD hampers the ability to be aggressive with the Civic under braking.
The 13x5 wheels are small, even compared to the 15x5.5 the MINI offers standard.
The steering ratio is slow enough that someone accustomed to 1960's domestic car steering racks wouldn't feel out of place.
The chassis was soft, enough so that my car, while autocrossed extensively from 1994 until 2005 when I sold it, had ripples on the tops of the front fenders from flex. I've seen everyday drivers with the same issue, so it wasn't just racing that caused this.
The OEM springs were soft enough that you could compress them by hand and not need a spring compressor when changing shocks, especially out back.
That's why my car never ran in Stock. CSP --> STS --> FSP --> STX --> SM
If you truly keep it apples-to-apples and bone stock, the Civic has lighter weight, and better suspension geometry along with bulletproof motors and transmissions.
But the brakes suck. The lack of ABS and EBD hampers the ability to be aggressive with the Civic under braking.
The 13x5 wheels are small, even compared to the 15x5.5 the MINI offers standard.
The steering ratio is slow enough that someone accustomed to 1960's domestic car steering racks wouldn't feel out of place.
The chassis was soft, enough so that my car, while autocrossed extensively from 1994 until 2005 when I sold it, had ripples on the tops of the front fenders from flex. I've seen everyday drivers with the same issue, so it wasn't just racing that caused this.
The OEM springs were soft enough that you could compress them by hand and not need a spring compressor when changing shocks, especially out back.
That's why my car never ran in Stock. CSP --> STS --> FSP --> STX --> SM
we did end up comparing bone stock, and i eked out about 3/10ths on him on a very tight course. i think he was on 14x5.5 wheels though, so not 100% stock. it is true that his springs were very soft and had a lot of body roll, and he had to pump the brakes due to lack of abs. lack of powersteering and slow steering rack hurt him a little in the tight slaloms.
all that said, i think it balanced out with his driving, lighter weight, faster acceleration, better gearing (for this course). this was the first of a series though, so we'll see. we were both on z1 starspecs, and he had hawk hps up front. curious to see how things go on a slightly faster course. the only thing i felt like that really held me back (aside from my driving) was the wheel/tire combo of bridge spokes + tires that weighed right around 40 lbs each - looking to swap into some holeys and get around 30 each, i think it'll make a good difference
Oh, and my car weighed about 2320 in autocross trim (nothing in trunk, 1/4 tank of gas) while it still had the D15 in it. So, the delta between my 1993 Civic and my 2012 MINI (no sunroof and no options other than cloth sport seats, Bluetooth, and Sport suspension) is a touch over 100lbs. and it has better brakes, a better steering rack, and stiff springs, relatively speaking.
For SM the Civic had a B16 with the Type-R LSD transmission but by then the car was 2180 in race trim because of all the other stuff you could do, as in I took out the radio and A/C completely and put the light seats from a delSol in the car among other things.
Stock Civics SUCK. Properly modified ones, like the one I had, are sublime.
For SM the Civic had a B16 with the Type-R LSD transmission but by then the car was 2180 in race trim because of all the other stuff you could do, as in I took out the radio and A/C completely and put the light seats from a delSol in the car among other things.
Stock Civics SUCK. Properly modified ones, like the one I had, are sublime.
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 133
Likes: 1
From: Glen Mills, PA
My car is 2360 with 2 carrots of gas in it. I think the HIDs are the difference between mine and Tony's, but I'm a ricer and I love em. Low option Minis are pretty light.
Trending Topics
whaaat so light
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,165
Likes: 400
That's pretty light. At the Dover National Tour my car was the lighter than Joe Austin's at 2,410 to 2,470. Indeed it was the lightest car that Joe was aware of I think. My R53 in comparison was 2,540.
Cheers,
Charlie
Cheers,
Charlie
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
Gotta stay away from the sunroof, heated seats, nav, 17's, etc that most people "demand" on a small premium car...
As I said in an earlier post, I have three options in the car, and none add weight.
*Cloth Sport seats
*Sport Suspension
*Bluetooth/iPod jack
Many R56 base MINI's are under 2400 lbs., I think the old GRM car was 2380-ish.
As I said in an earlier post, I have three options in the car, and none add weight.
*Cloth Sport seats
*Sport Suspension
*Bluetooth/iPod jack
Many R56 base MINI's are under 2400 lbs., I think the old GRM car was 2380-ish.
Gotta stay away from the sunroof, heated seats, nav, 17's, etc that most people "demand" on a small premium car...
As I said in an earlier post, I have three options in the car, and none add weight.
*Cloth Sport seats
*Sport Suspension
*Bluetooth/iPod jack
Many R56 base MINI's are under 2400 lbs., I think the old GRM car was 2380-ish.
As I said in an earlier post, I have three options in the car, and none add weight.
*Cloth Sport seats
*Sport Suspension
*Bluetooth/iPod jack
Many R56 base MINI's are under 2400 lbs., I think the old GRM car was 2380-ish.
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix, AZ
Having autox'd both cars, you should be able to take him with the Mini's superior suspension and smaller size, just make sure you do everything you can to maintain as high a speed as possible.
Also, my STF R50 has a competition weight ( 1/4 tank of gas and spare tire dropped, no sunroof) of 2,340 lbs.
Also, my STF R50 has a competition weight ( 1/4 tank of gas and spare tire dropped, no sunroof) of 2,340 lbs.
Last edited by STF_U; May 29, 2013 at 06:31 AM.
Interesting.. I'm not sure what my car's weight is - I bought it used, if I had the option I wouldn't have gotten the sunroof of course. unfortunately, the civic torched me by a full second the last event. it was a more open, sweepy course, and by the end there were corners where he literally didn't have to brake anymore and would just get a ton of throttle rotation lift where I still had to brake, and that's what did me in
what does that matter besides semantics..?
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix, AZ
Interesting.. I'm not sure what my car's weight is - I bought it used, if I had the option I wouldn't have gotten the sunroof of course. unfortunately, the civic torched me by a full second the last event. it was a more open, sweepy course, and by the end there were corners where he literally didn't have to brake anymore and would just get a ton of throttle rotation lift where I still had to brake, and that's what did me in
Thank combined with a nice fat rear sway bar (Hotchkis makes a 27mm one) will make the rear end rotate very nicely for you, thus making you able to brake less and use the gas more
Do you have adjustable shocks? If so, turn up the rebound/compression in the rear. If not, get some
Thank combined with a nice fat rear sway bar (Hotchkis makes a 27mm one) will make the rear end rotate very nicely for you, thus making you able to brake less and use the gas more
Thank combined with a nice fat rear sway bar (Hotchkis makes a 27mm one) will make the rear end rotate very nicely for you, thus making you able to brake less and use the gas more
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,034
Likes: 72
Just making a statement. Technically, it does matter. "Base" implies lack of content, and there are certainly some very optioned out non-S cars out there (mine included). Thanks for being condescending, though.
ah icic
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix, AZ
Ah good, you will be AMAZED how much better the car handles with just these 2 mods (don't know what size the hsport rsb is but definitely get the biggest rsb you can), you will be able to take corners much faster and therefore be able to maintain a much higher overall speed.
Ah good, you will be AMAZED how much better the car handles with just these 2 mods (don't know what size the hsport rsb is but definitely get the biggest rsb you can), you will be able to take corners much faster and therefore be able to maintain a much higher overall speed.
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 124
Likes: 0
From: Phoenix, AZ
Another piece of advice: learn from my mistakes
don't waist your time playing with the settings, just set to full stiff!
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 133
Likes: 1
From: Glen Mills, PA
Ah good, you will be AMAZED how much better the car handles with just these 2 mods (don't know what size the hsport rsb is but definitely get the biggest rsb you can), you will be able to take corners much faster and therefore be able to maintain a much higher overall speed.
They are ok out of the box though. The car won't rotate, but it'll still knife through slaloms and can be driven plenty quickly with a little trail braking. You can definitely get this Civic. Trust the car! Attack your slaloms and don't overdrive your corner entries.
Also, ASK, "base" refers to a low or no option car regardless of whether or not its an S, and certainly isn't a dig. I say I have a pretty "base" Justa since its only options are the sport seats and HIDs. Base = light! I'd say the same thing if I had a DStock MCS.
This.
They are ok out of the box though. The car won't rotate, but it'll still knife through slaloms and can be driven plenty quickly with a little trail braking. You can definitely get this Civic. Trust the car! Attack your slaloms and don't overdrive your corner entries.
They are ok out of the box though. The car won't rotate, but it'll still knife through slaloms and can be driven plenty quickly with a little trail braking. You can definitely get this Civic. Trust the car! Attack your slaloms and don't overdrive your corner entries.