I was at the PDX auto show this weekend and saw a few custom cars that had harnesses installed, but no roll cage. I'm pretty sure there are people on tNAM that run this way.

Wouldn't this be potentially really bad in the event of a rollover? If the roof caved in and you were strapped into a 4 point, you'd have no way to duck and your head would probably get caved in as well.

Am I missing something here?

 

Car roofs are very strong, part of the saftey cage. A regular seat belt will lock if the car turns upside down as well. The real danger is a convertible with a harness and no cage. The SCCA mandates that if you have an open car, your helmeted head must be 2" below an imaginary line from the windshield header to the roll bar.
Chris

 

I think it's 2 Inches below an imaginary line from the top of the front
shock tower to the rollcage.

 

I used to auto x a 95 corvette. I had five point seat belts but no roll bar. Roll bar is not needed unless you road race (then it's required)

RaceCarDriver

 

Even if the 3 point belt locked, you should have some ability to move your upper body to the right and down. In an accident like this:



don't you think you'd have a better chance in a standard 3 point harness?

 

In general, yes it is a bad idea. I have only used harnesses in autocross situations, where the chance of a rollover is minimal (and at slow speeds, the chance of a MINI collapsing is very low.) I would not use a harness for track or street driving without a rollbar.

Oddly enough, my mother's 525i has rear seat belts that are "backwards", in that they pull from the middle back and lock on the outside. In the event of a rollover, you wouldn't be able to "duck" because your head/neck is trapped between the seatbelt and the c pillar. I have always found that kinda weird.

 

I have the Scroth 4 point harness which I have used at BMW Club School as well as other track days.

My BMWClub had a requirement until last Summer that a 1/2 cage was needed for >3 point but they changed it to a recommendation so I went ahead and bought the Scroth.

I drive at Mosport which has a lot of elevation change and blind crests so i loved the snugged down feel with the 4 point. The MINI lap straps just don't tighten enough to hold your body upright and I feel that my driving - and therefor safety - are enhanced with the 4 point set up.

Unfortunately the head instructor is having "2nd thoughts" for 2004 chools and seems to be going back to the old 'need a 1/2 cage' position. I can't argue that my car will never flip but the MINI had tested very highly for safety and it's a chance I'm willing to take.

Having been in a few accidents over the years I think it is complete nonsense that anyone can "duck out of the way" when a car ir rolling. if you knew about it that far in advance why are you not still driving the ***** car? Once stuff happens, especially a roll over, you are a passenger and you are going to end up where ever you end up.

 

I don't think that it is likely that someone could actively "duck" during a rollover. The difference would be between the roof crushing you into your seat, or (hopefully) shoving you horizontal towards the passenger seat/dashboard/wherever.

I don't track my car or have any practical experience with rollovers, so I could easily be 100% wrong about everything I've said in this thread. FWIW YMMV

 

early,

I think that you are correctly quoting the standard understanding of the dangers inherent in four-point designs when not using a cage. And this has nothing to do with "active ducking"! If the roof is crushed down on top of your noggin, your whole upper body will shift and compress sideways (toward the middle of the car) because the seatbelt is open over your right shoulder. With a four-point on, your body wouldn't have the ability to shift very much if the roof caved.

In any event, there is less of a chance of serious head or neck injury when using the standard three point. That being said, I got a Shroth for Christmas, and I plan on using it for Auto-X this year, but I'm still undecided as to whether or not I'll use it in road racing. I guess it's all a matter of how much you trust your driving and the MINI's frame as to whether or not it's worth it to you.

 

GordonD - It's pretty much to the chief instructor or DEC whether or not rollbars are necessary when using a 4 point harness. Flipping a car is the last thing that comes to one's mind, but it does happen. I run the local BMW CCA school and we had a S2000 flip at our last event. It was the last thing we thought would happen, but it did. Luckily no one got hurt. IMHO, you should have a roll bar/cage when using a 4 point for the reasons in the previous posts.

 

Being tall (6'2", unless I just got a hair cut my hair will often brush on the roof of the car) I am concerned about the slightest bit of roof coming in on me. That being said, I would definatly run a four point in high G low speed situations where staying in my seat is important. I would not trust the roof in a high speed rollover and would therefore opt for a three point due to the lack of a roll cage. That's what's nice about the scroth, it comes right out!

 

If your Mini is crushed during a roll over, I'd bet that you'd be experiencing something over 40 g's upside down...like being dropped from a two story building or something...I defy anyone to do anything let alone duck I use my Schroth for holding me in position during active driving not for crashing

Anyone noticed that Schroth reads like "SCROTM" on the harnesses

_________________

 

Most people I know only use the Schroth harnesses for auto-x. For road racing, I wouldn't have one in my car without a cage... and street driving, I definitely wouldn't have a 4-point in my car.

 

>>Most people I know only use the Schroth harnesses for auto-x. For road racing, I wouldn't have one in my car without a cage... and street driving, I definitely wouldn't have a 4-point in my car.

I'll 2nd that. Ask any experienced Drivers Ed. instructor if you should have a harness with no cage and he'll flat out tell you "hell no!" It is a bad idea, unless you're looking forward to being a vegetable the rest of your life. And to those people who say "I like it, gives me a racing car feel and holds me in the seat better" well then invest in a rollcage.

 

>>
>>In any event, there is less of a chance of serious head or neck injury when using the standard three point.


I teach Pre Hospital Trauma Life Support (PHTLS) The section on spinal injury has a picture of a girl with lipstick on her chest from the accident. (Yes, she hit so hard her neck snapped down and her lips touched her chest) try it. She was wearing a 3 point restraint. That being said 3 point, 4 point, rollover, or not youcan be seriously hurt no matter what you wear and how safe you are.........remember Murphy's Law

 

Speaking from experience, when I rolled my 64 VW bug many many years ago at the "relative low speed" of 45 mph, it was practically impossible to duck. All we could do was to hang on. Hanging upside down and spinning while traveling at any speed applies a whole lot of g-forces. My passenger and I were wearing lap belts (I installed these myself as seatbelts were an option then) so there would have been no restrictions as to which way to duck if we could have. At nearly any speed and especially at high speed rollovers, the amount of g-force would be far too great to counteract physically.

I agree with MSFITOY, wearing a harness will keep you in your seat allowing for better control of the vehicle during active driving. Should you crash/roll then it would help keep the body from failing about, because at that point you are only along for the ride.

 

Well said.

 

In a roll over you might or might not do better being secured with racing harness. There are too many variables in an accident to control what is going to happen to you. In general the racing harness will provide better protection, but one can always find a specific accident where one could have faired better without being strapped in. Not likely, but possible. What we are dealing with is probability theory.

In an bad accident a person will be more likely to survive and have few injuries in a roll bar equiped MINI with racing seats and harnesses than in a MINI with just racing seats and harnesses which would then be followed by the stock MINI. Each of the above would probably do better with a full face helmet.

As your speeds increase and the closer you are to continuosly pushing the MINI's limits, then the more protection you should use.

 

i would imagine that if you has a rollover that was violent enough to crush the roof of the car the stock seat you are in is going to snap in half like a stale potato chip...

putting the s**t happens stuff aside...

I like the four point harness when driving on the street and on the twisty's that I get to drive.. I like to have a belt that I can tighten up and put me in the seat.. the three point stuff does not get tight until you are in trouble..


here's to not hangin upside down at 50!

 

Has anyone actually been in a crash..in a MINI..with the harness? The top attachment seems odd...I would definately want a crossbar or a cage for the top attachment points. I have always read that the top should be at shoulder height..not in the bottom of your rear seats. No doubt that they hold you in tighter..but what about an actual impact?

 

it is ideal to have it at the same height, but the important part is that it is not more then 45 degree angle. Additionally a part many people miss, especially tall people is that where the harness goes through your seat should not be below your shoulders...if the harness has to go down after your shoulders but before the seat it can cause your spin to crush in an accident (i'm not talking rollover or anythign but a normal accident....so please everyone take that into consideration for safety.

The argument can be made that a fixed harness should never be used on the street with a cage or without as after first impact the seatbelt will stretch and become slightly loose unlike a normal seatbelt, or the schroth belts that retract....in accidents that cause you to have more then one impact a normal fixed harness won't hold you as well.

 

GordonD said:


and then MSFITOY said:


and then Jovo said:

and then goin440 said:


And now *I* say: You guys are all missing the point here. You didn't read (or ignored) my post. It has NOTHING to do with "actively" ducking. I'm not saying that your car will roll and you will be able to move out of the way. I'm saying that you body has the ability to move to some degree if the roof caves in and you're in a three point. It's difficult to explain without actually showing you, but imagine that your torso, neck and head in normal situations looks like a capital I. Now imagine that the roof caves in six inches. Your body has a certain amount of give in the joints (neck and hips in this case), and it has the ability to NATURALLY contract to the right, so that it will look like this: >. Just go out and sit your car and try this. The path of least resistance in the case of your roof getting crushed is for your body to shift to the right, to the OPEN side afforded by your three-point seat belt and natural physical tendencies. I'm not saying that there is an infinite amount of give, but there is SOME, perhaps six inches to a foot. If you're in a four point, your body is locked in place (the whole POINT of a four point), and therefore the amount of "give" before your neck snaps is probably about four inches.

Again, you can have all of the theories that you want, and it doesn't have to make sense to you, but I'm here to tell you that, much like ZAMIRZ said, if you ask ANYONE who does this sort of thing professionally, s/he will tell you that it is simply not a good idea to where a harness without a cage. That's all there is to it. I'm not trying to tell anyone of you not to do it, but I think that in high speed situations (i.e. road racing), it just doesn't seem like the additional comfort is worth the potential for additional injury.

All of the above notwithstanding, I do believe that motormad has a very valid point in stating that looking at any single accident, perhaps the driver would have faired better if X. But the vast majority of professionals believe that in MOST rollovers, the driver will tend to fair better in a three-point rather than in a four-point if there is no rollcage installed.

 

Though not an actually an accident, I refer you to an episode of the Discovery Channel show, "More than Human." The show recreated the bridge collapse during the earthquake of 1992 (I think I'm not sure). During the collapse a pickup truck was crushed. Because the driver was not wearing his seat belt his body was pushed down in between the seat and the floor. He did not actively duck or anything like that. The crushing action of the roof pushed his body down in to that postition. The man was unconscience so there was no active ducking involved. If he had been wearing a seatbelt his body would have been held upright and he would have been killed. I know this is not at speed and definatly an extreme case and there was no seatbelt involved. However, I believe it is quite possible to take some of what was seen there and apply it to a rollover accident.

 

I read an interesting article from the Highway Safety commission about cars with roll cages on the street. It was pointing out that vehicles driven on the street with roll cages not using a helmet was one of the most dangerous scenarios. While a roll cage plus a helmet is the safest, a roll cage without a helmet and stock seats was more dangerous than a stock vehicle. The reasoning was that most stock seats have enough deflection during a serious crash to allow an unprotected head to come into contact with the roll cage, which is generally closer to the driver than the vehicle structure. Whereas a stock vehicle will have increased clearance around the head plus some vehicles with side curtain airbags will protect the head. In a MINI the side airbags will not protect you from contact with a roll cage. Just an interesting fact I had never thought about.

 

I ran with my Schroth 4 point for about 3 months before i installed a 4 point bar by Autopower ( $300 ) . I had heard the warnings about a 4 point with no bar and figured that someday I would put the bar in. I ran out of talent as they say one day at the track and as I was going sideways at about 90 figured it was about time.The isntal was HUGE pain as you have to strip everything from the dashboard back but I feel a lot better at all times knowing it is in now. As for drivign on the streetwith no helmet but with a bar that has been addressed as well with this bar in my opinion. The roof cross piece is quite a bit back from the head rest and tight against the ceiling. I have looked at this long and hard and if you are in the harness properly and your head can still reach the bar you have bigger problems to deal with if you know what I mean.In any evnet should you get a bar if you have the four points of course. Do you NEED one, thats for you to decide.