Hi guys and gals,
After taking my MCS to the track (NH) the other day on OEM runflats, I decided not to be cheap and get a set of track wheels/R-comp tires. This was my first HPDE in MCS, ~20th overall. I am looking at either Toyo R888, Toyo R01, Nitto NT01 or Yoko AD048. For the wheels it looks like I have to go with 17” as R-comp seem to be primarily 15” or 17”. I am looking at cheapest light wheels out there: Konig Eco1 or Kosei K1 or similar. Any suggestions on tire/wheel combo are much appreciated.

But here’s my main question: since last HPDE I installed front camber plates (vorshlag) and soon will have adjustable rear control arms. My car is also lowered on NM springs (~1.25” drop). Will 215/45/17 tire work without rubbing and such? I am planning to dial in 3 degree neg camber up front and whatever rear neg camber I need? Or am I looking at 205 tires because of the lowering and the negative camber? Thx a lot.

Alex

 

205/50-16 Dunlop Star Specs on Rota Slipstream 16x6.5 wheels for less than a grand mounted and balanced.

TireRack.com
18racing.com

For an R-compound I'd consider Hankook Ventus Z214. $150 for 205/50-16. Have fun.

 

I ran Kosei 15x7 +38 with 205/50-15 Hoosier AS304 back in the day. 9" tread width on those 205s, as the Hoosiers are quite a bit wider than any street tire with the same published dimensions. They worked well, and I had no clearance issues.

Chassis setup is in my sig - please note this is an R53! The R56 is a different beast, and so please take this with several grains of salt if you are running the Gen 2 - brake clearance would be one potential difference.

Are you sure you want to go to stickies so quickly? Lots of pros and cons there...

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Before you buy any Race tires you need to think about a couple things. If you are not very experienced with tracking a car R compounds are NOT a good idea. They will destroy your learning curve as they cover up your mistakes because they grip so well. R compounds also wear much faster, and even faster if you are not smooth and learning to drive at the track still. Plus they cost more.

My suggestion would be buy some High performance summer tires, like Yoko's or toyos that are good track tires but can be driven on the street and will last a lot longer. Once you are experienced down the road move up to race tires.

 

And by all means you will need to upgrade your braking system if you choose to go with R-comps.

I don't think the 215's would be the way to go as you will probably get some rubbing at the wheel arches. You could do some trimming, but they will more than likely rub w/o it.

 

I agree with Way above regarding the use of R-comps so early. I don't know what covering up your mistakes even means, but R-comps are not as easy to drive at their limits of adhesion because they don't give as much warning as street tires that you're about to exceed those limits. At this point, street tires would probably be better for your learning progression.

I like the wheel/tire setup that hsautocrosser posted above, but you could also do that with 17s using the same brands of wheels and tires.

 

i have about 20+ track days under my belt and have run R-comp with my old car (G35). i do understand completely your point about messing with the learning curve....

 

yeap, the plan is to go with XP10 upfront and XP08 in the rear.

 

16" would be my preference as well; i was only thinking 17" as there are more tire choices....

i have been debating R-comp vs. super "sticky" street tire.... i typically run with advanced group and 75% of us/them run r-comp. when i took my MCS on run-flats to the track last time, i had to ask to be moved to group 2 to avoid constant point-bys to M3 with R-comp.

 

If you run r-comps, please consider going to XP12 F and XP10 R. I think that pad matches better with the slicks.

 

Which group is group 2? Is that intermediate solo?

FYI, I went with 17" early on in anticipation of having to get a BBK.

Back to your original question, 215 should not rub (on the shock tower) on your lowered car, but it does depend on your rim choice. You generally would not rub on the outside with standard 42 to 48 et for many rims.

I have run the Nitto NT01, Yoko AD048 and BFG R1. I like the R1 best, then AD048 then Nitto if it was price independent. But with Nitto being the cheapest, it is a good bang for the buck.

15-35 track days is where your skills is just catching up to your speed. So be careful. Intermediate solo is where you tend to see the most on track incidents.

 

BTW, -3 front camber could put you into the category of non streetable car. Or at least in the category of a car that can chew tires. Even with Vorshlags, it is not so easy to get a good trackside camber adjustment because changing camber also changes toe.

 

i track primarily with BMW CCA. they typically have 4 groups (at least on short tracks). group 1 is the most advanced, solo sign off. lots of racers run their cars in this group for fun, practice and to set up the car. group 2 can get solo sign off (instructor's decision). prior to getting into a Mini i was running in group 1, albeit not for too long. when i took MCS out to NHMS, i asked to be moved to a lower group: run-flats, stock pads, not really knowing the car, my fist FWD, my first <3200 lbs car, etc.
thx for the info on 215s.... i also need to understand whether going to 215s vs. 205s is worth the extra few lbs or $$

 

If you are looking for inexpensive light wheels, the Velox VX6Rs in 17" are lighter than the Kosei K1s and cheaper.

 

I ran 215/40/16s Kumhos on stock mini 16" wheels (the pic in my sig). There was so much wheel gap (even when lowered) that rubbing was not an issue.

 

I would go with 215 because it helps being a little wider. In advanced groups, you are not going to catch high HP cars anyway so have fun in the turns.

BMWCCA rungroups classifications are different by chapters so I had to ask. Sometimes they go by letters, numbers and colors, who knows. You must be running with Boston chapter in NHIS and LRP.

 

To answer your original question here, rubbing shouldn't be an issue. If I may suggest something to you though. I run a nice 17 inch lightweight wheel and I have run some nice DOT-R compound tires on them for track use. I personally think that a nice summer performance or Ultra High Performance All Season tire would be better to learn on. When I ran those DOT-R tires, I was new to the track day concept. Just as Way said, it covered up some bad habits in technique that I had developed over time. Using the less sticky tires that were developed for street use (I use the Kumho ASX) I have been able to re-learn some good skills and now, I can drive with much more confidence.

With that being said, my track setup is my set of 15 inch Holeys that came with the car, coupled with Toyo R888 Street Radials. The tires can be driven on the street which is nice, have tons of grip, and can be driven in the rain if need be. The 205/50-15 size doesn't rub, and my car is sitting on TSW springs. the camber would not be an issue here. You might want to think about finding some OEM 15 inch wheels for cheap (Holeys weigh 12 pounds or something like that) and then grabbing some track day tires for them if that is truly the route you would like to go.

17 inch wheel combos can be light, but the weight of my 15 inch combo overall is about 25-20 pounds lighter in overall weight. Something to consider!

 

thx for the info! i would love to go to 15"; but they will not clear (right?) stock r56 calipers. 16" would be good choice, but i am concerned short- and long-term tire availability (R-comp or not). plus if i ever get a BBK, 16" might not work. those are my reasons for pretty much settling with 17".

overall, i am getting lots of advise for staying with "street" tires; and i am thankful for that. i have to tell you, Mini crowd is very much different from g35/350z crowd i am used to with my last car. the mantra was always "if you wanna run with M3s, STi, Evos and 911s, gotta get R-comps".

2 days ago i was dead set on going with R-comp; now i am thinking about it. in either case i will go with a dedicated track set: 16" or likely 17" light wheel, and either R-comp (205s or 215s, need to settle on the tire that "talks" back) or sticky street tire, definitely in 215 (i think extra contact patch will be useful towards the end of the sessions).

sum summurum so far: 215s with right wheel (right offset) will not rub even if lots of neg camber dialed in, correct?

 

Yes.

Do not dial negative camber to -3.0 as you stated unless you want to change the tires often. I would go with -2.0.

 

x2 what the folks at WayMororWorks and others posted re R compounds.

Also, consider intentionally using one gear too high in the corners the first session or so.
This will help you get the feel of a good line through corners and to not have power to let you pull out of a bad line.

Do you plan to participate in events only in warm weather?
When the Toyo 888 debuted, I recall something about there being some trouble with the tire cracking if stored or driven at temps below 32°F.
There was also something about partially deflating when storing them I believe.
Maybe I have a fuzzy memory or if I correctly recall, perhaps Toyo has found a remedy.

More recently, there was something about supply issues with the Toyo RA1 owing to the troubles in Japan.
The SCCA has again allowed the 888 tire for Spec Miata.
Believe that SM runs a 205/50x15 so perhaps the RA1 shortage won’t cause problems in looking for a Toyo in the 16” size if you opt to go that way.

215 should not pose a rubbing issue if camber/wheel size/offset are correct as you have mentioned.

Good luck.

 

So I am reading all these posts about no r-comps. How many days and what level would you say it would be fine to go with r-comps.

I throw this out there as a discussion point because in my six plus years of running track, I have seen many people with 20+ days of track experience or even less, go crazy with r-comps. And there is a prevailing opinion in a few clubs that they prefer to have noobs with little experience on r-comps because they have a higher threshold for error. I definately have my opinions but want to see what others think.

 

R-comps obviously have more grip, and permit greater forces when braking and cornering. They also tolerate less slip angle, and the available grip falls rapidly as slip angle increases. Finally they do not talk much - you cannot use your ears easily to find the right slip angle.

TW 140 tires have over 90% of the grip of R comp, but by maintaining that grip across a wider range of slip angles, and by squealing audibly, they are more forgiving for a beginner seeking to find smoothness at the limit of adhesion.

My car would pull 1.25 G on Hoosier AS304 ('05) and will now pull 1.15 G on Dunlop StarSpec Z1, but the Dunlops are easier to control and produce far fewer spins.

Kind regards,

Charlie

Ps: there's plenty of G-Tech data in my gallery if you are curious.

 

Good discussion topic, slinger.

My background. I've been tracking for 24 years, and instructing for most of that time; but at Porsche club track events in which other car makes also run. We've had very few MINIs though, and I've never instructed in a MINI. I used to autocross a '64 MCS, but that was very long ago.

Beginners at our events are usually advised to run their cars stock, but with fresh brake fluid and a pre-event track inspection (required). We emphasize learning the line and smoothness, so it's very rare that a green student will need more track-worthy brake pads, fluid, or tires.

At some point, however, a progressing student will likely bump up against some limitation in the stock set-up. For me it came in the advanced instructed run group, and it showed in the form of a low brake pedal/brake fade in the closing minutes of each run session. At that point my instructor suggested that I consider more track-worthy brake pads and fluid, so I made the switch for the next event. Several events later I made the switch to R-comp tires on separate rims; as much to keep from beating up my street tires and wheels as for their extra grip.

That same limitations chain seems to be a common one among advancing students. I had an excellent advanced student at the last event. He was moved up to the solo group during the weekend, and was passing more cars than were passing him while still on his OE street tires, brake pads, and fluid. He recently emailed me about track pads, fluid, and R-comps, so I think he may be at the edge of the slippery slope.

I'd want my student to be able to exhibit very good car control before I'd recommend the switch to R-comps. R-comps provide more grip, but they also lose their grip more abruptly than street tires.

I've heard of only one "objective" criterion for being ready to drive on R-comps, but, unfortunately, it comes after the switch. If the driver can't get the R-comps into their recommended tread temperature range (which usually starts at about 160 degrees with a probe pyrometer), they might as well be on Extreme Performance street tires. I caught a lot of "heat" about that after I came in with my new R-comps at 130 degrees after a few "hot" laps. I drove harder the next session and finally got them to 160 degrees. My excuse: It was a very cool day in March.

Finally, street tires are much better now than when I started out; especially the Extreme Performance tires. If I'd had such tires when I started, I might never have switched to R-comps. Once on R-comps, however, it's hard to go back.

 

Jim,

I agree with you completely. It is all about exhibiting control and not about speed.

Most mini trackies can get a fair amount of speed very quickly and do not have enough time for their car control to mature. I typically hear, I can pass that 911 in my group so I should move up and be solo. But once that person in the 911 develops the car control that you did not, it will be see you later.

Because the mini driver can gain speed quickly and not have a decent mastery of car control, I have seen some real problems when they get into the advanced groups, especially with all the fancy gear and 275 whp and wtorque.

Then they hit the severe limitations of a fwd car and all that HP.

For the op, learn the mini and how it performs with street tires. There is plenty of time later to spend lots of money on soft rubber that you will scrap off in the corners, stuff that will last you 2 days on the track.

 

I think the 15 inch wheels will clear those calipers just fine! R56 vehciles also came with 15 inchers too ya know

If not, you could always grab some spacers to clear the calipers. I will post the pics of my track wheels on here if I can get around to it. I love the look of some sweet OEM wheels sitting with a mean stance and some race rubber. I have to admit, I have been known to throw them on and take them for a spin around the block from time to time. Toyo R888, Yokohama Advan A048, and Dunlop Direzza Star Spec Z1 all seem to be the most popular. Kumho XS is a good choice too and it is cheaper than the rest in 205/50-15.