Tires, Wheels, & Brakes Discussion about wheels, tires, and brakes for the new MINI.
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 11:13 AM
  #1  
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Is 3 pounds a big deal?

Well, I thought I had it all figured out and was going to go with a 215/45/17 Hankook Ventus. So I looked at the tire weight and it is 22 pounds. The 205/45/17 in the same tire is 19 pounds?!?

Now I'm wondering if I should just stick with the stock tire size? Would that extra 3 pounds of weight be a big performance hit or would the extra rubber make it worth it?
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 11:46 AM
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Remember it is 3 lbs. per tire = 12 lbs.
If this is a street car 12 lbs. is nothing you will ever notice.
On a true race car, 12 lbs. is a very big issue.
A lot of people think of weight reduction ideas, (Carbon Fiber, alum. this and that, etc.).
Most driver's would not really notice or could tell between a 50 lb. lighter car and their own car.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 11:48 AM
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3 extra pounds of rotating mass on each corner will be felt. I guy with 19lbs on each corner with the exact set up would leave you in the dust on a track. If the driving abilities are fairly close anyway. The guys with really quick Mini's all seem to have light weight wheels and tires. Your ok with a 22lb tire if it is on a light weight rim. Total weight is the key. You would be 4 or 5lbs
a wheel lighter than stock with some after market light weight rims and the larger tires. That would make it fast with lots of grip which is never a bad combination. Really depends on what kind of driving set up your looking for.
Narrower tires might turn in better and scrub less speed. All depends on the set up. Only one rule applies to anything fast.

SPEED=$. How fast do you want to go? How thick is your wallet. Enjoy.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 12:13 PM
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How do you make a little money racing?

Start out with a lot of money.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 12:20 PM
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Also keep in mind that the weight distribution matters too. Your 215/45 tire has a larger sidewall than the 205/45, therefore the weight is distributed further out from the wheel. It will be slightly harder to get those tires moving.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 12:34 PM
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How much extra rubber width is worth the cost of how much extra rubber weight? It's been estimated that an extra 12# of unsprung rotating mass is about the same as carrying extra sprung weight of 4 (or was it 5?) times that amount. I can't vouch for that, but it makes sense.

All unsprung rotating mass is apparently not the same. Weight that is farther away from the axis of rotation (e.g., tires) takes a bit more power to turn than the same weight that's closer to the axis (e.g., wheels). I realize that the difference is small.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 12:50 PM
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The ASA AR1 rims I'm looking at are listed at 20.7 pounds a piece for a 17x7.

What exactly is considered "light"? With stock size rubber I'd be at just under 40 pounds per corner.

I may still stick with the 215s as it is a street only car but still, I was surprised that there would be a 3 pound difference.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Island maser
3 extra pounds of rotating mass on each corner will be felt. I guy with 19lbs on each corner with the exact set up would leave you in the dust on a track. If the driving abilities are fairly close anyway. The guys with really quick Mini's all seem to have light weight wheels and tires. Your ok with a 22lb tire if it is on a light weight rim. Total weight is the key. You would be 4 or 5lbs
a wheel lighter than stock with some after market light weight rims and the larger tires. That would make it fast with lots of grip which is never a bad combination. Really depends on what kind of driving set up your looking for.
Narrower tires might turn in better and scrub less speed. All depends on the set up. Only one rule applies to anything fast.

SPEED=$. How fast do you want to go? How thick is your wallet. Enjoy.



+ 1, exactly what he said,, I am going to give the 235 40 17s a shot this spring, I am not really autocrossing the Mini, so I want to see how these look and ride
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 01:25 PM
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What does your current combo weight in at?
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 01:31 PM
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I really believe you will feel a very significant difference with the heavier tire, and you won't like it. 3 lbs turns into many more at each corner when they get to spinning. I regret that I was not a good enough student in HS Physics to be able to explain the principle to you, but in layman's termms, rotating mass increases exponentially so adding 3 lbs will wind up actually adding many more when it comes time for the motor to spin them up.

You also have to allow for the adverse impact of the changes to your final drive ration which will occur from going to a higher sidewal height.

The wide tire sure looks good, but in reality, it seldom offsets the other losses. I think you would find that even if the tires weighed the same and were the same diameter, the wider tire would still offer greater rolling resistance. Ungood.

But the phychological issue of how good the big fat tires look is very hard to overcome. No question.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 04:34 PM
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you will not notice 3lbs per tire, but going with heavier wheels AND tires you will notice it. On my mini I went from 20LB 18" wheels to 15LB 18" wheels, and let me tell you, the difference was easily felt, esp in the braking. Add in the fact that i my tires also dropped 2 or 3 lbs per tire, and your looking at 7-8 lbs per wheels, thats about 30lbs of rotating mass, just from different brands of wheels! thats a heck of a difference in performance.
 
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 05:59 PM
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Old Jan 9, 2011 | 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackCamden
Well, I thought I had it all figured out and was going to go with a 215/45/17 Hankook Ventus. So I looked at the tire weight and it is 22 pounds. The 205/45/17 in the same tire is 19 pounds?!?

Now I'm wondering if I should just stick with the stock tire size? Would that extra 3 pounds of weight be a big performance hit or would the extra rubber make it worth it?
If you have stock 17x7 wheels then 205/45-17 is better in your case, assuming this is for street use.

More tread is fine if you can make good use of it and you are willing to increase weight of the wider wheel and tire for more tire contact patch.

Wide wheels like 17x8 rims and wider tires 235 or wider with race compound tires not street tires might be worth the cost and effort but you should consider alignment that is aggressive as well as full suspension mods to make better use of the wider tires.

Using extra wide tires on stock suspension and alignment will hardly be worth the cost and effort.

When I autocrossed my MINI I would often use 15x5.5 or even 15x7 rims and 205/50-15 race tires for 29 lbs or less per corner. Lighter is better but consider everything as a package.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 06:26 AM
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Sprung Weight

Sprung weight is the weight supported by the springs. For example: the vehicle's body, frame, motor, transmission, interior, fuel, and passengers would be sprung weight. A simple concept to grasp. Basically, the sprung weight of the car is the car's mass as seen to the suspension components.

Unsprung Weight

This is one of the most critical factors affecting a vehicle's road holding ability. Unsprung weight is that portion of a vehicle that is not supported by the suspension (i.e. wheels, tires and brakes) and therefore is the most susceptible to road shock and cornering forces. By reducing unsprung weight, alloy wheels provide more precise steering input and improved "turning in" characteristics. So what. SO WHAT!? This is a key concept that many people overlook. We have been telling you for a long time now to get light weight wheels and tires. Here's how it all comes together.

Every time you hit a bump, the wheel assembly is accelerated upwards, decelerates to a stop, then accelerates downward till it reaches equilibrium. If the wheel can’t accelerate fast enough, shock is transmitted to the body, which may upset the balance of the car. A s an example think of small, sharp edged speed bumps versus those gigantic, but wide, monsters in some lots. The sharp edged ones are much more annoying to traverse, aren’t they? That’s because they require the suspension to accelerate more rapidly. Now imagine going over some stutter bumps in a corner. You’ll have a very rapid series of accelerations and decelerations. If the wheel is lighter, it will accelerate upwards and downwards faster (a=F/m). This means it will follow the road better and, even more importantly, it will allow the suspension to work better. The shock and spring will have to control less unsprung weight/mass, which means they can stop and start the motion of the assembly easier and at a rapid pace.

Why Reduce Unspring Wieght?

Reducing unsprung weight minimizes the load placed on controlling the motion of the wheels and tires. This means that suspension springs and shock absorbers will have a greater reserve capacity to control body motion -- just as they were intended to! The result is better handling, which we, as tuners, are all after.

Rotational inertia is a concept a bit more difficult to deal with than unsprung weight. Inertia can be thought of as why a car wants to keep rolling once moving, or remain in place once stopped (unless you forget to set the parking brake on that hill). I believe the terms momentum and inertia are interchangeable. The term “flywheel effect” also refers to these concepts. In a car, there are a number of rotating masses which require energy to accelerate. Up front, ignoring the internal engine components like the crankshaft, we have to worry about the flywheel, clutch assembly, gears, axles, brake rotors and wheel/tire. Out back its a little simpler (for FWD) with just the brakes and wheel/tire contributing most of the mass.

The more mass an object has, the more energy it takes to accelerate it. To accelerate a rolling object such as a wheel, you must both accelerate its mass plus overcome its rotational inertia. As for braking, you must overcome its rotational inertia plus decelerate its mass. By reducing the weight of the vehicle's rotational mass, lightweight wheels provide more responsive acceleration and braking.

Before continuing with our informal analysis here, I want to point out something very important about rotational inertia. We’ve all seen the ice skating move where the skater starts spinning. She pulls her arms in and speeds up, then extends them again and slows down. Why is this? Well, the further a mass is from the center of rotation, the faster it must travel for a given angular speed (how many degrees of an arc it traverses per time unit). The faster anything moves, the more energy it has, so when the arms are pulled in, conservation of energy says that the rotation rate must increase due to equal energy being applied to the same mass over a smaller diameter. Applying this to wheels and tires, which have most of their mass spread as far as possible from the rotation center, I think you’ll agree that it naturally takes more energy to accelerate them. Example: Take a two identical masses, but one is a solid disk of diameter D, the other is a ring of diameter 2D. The ring will require more force to accelerate it (in a rotational manner). Therefore a heavier rim with a smaller diameter could have less rotational mass than a lighter rim of a larger size, and accelerate faster with the same force applied.

The effect of rotating mass can be calculated using Moment of Inertia (MOI). MoI is related to not only the mass of the rotating object, but the distribution of that mass around the rotational center. The further from the center, the higher the MoI. The higher the MoI, the more torque required to accelerate the object. The higher the acceleration, the higher the torque required.

Because of this, the weight of rotating mass such as wheels and tires on a car have a bigger effect on acceleration than static weight such as on the chassis on a car. When purchasing new wheels and tires for a performance car, it can be useful to compare the effects of different wheel and tire combinations. This is especially true when considering upgrading to larger wheels or tires on a car.

The use of light-weight alloys in wheels reduces rotational mass. This means that less energy will be required to accelerate the wheel. Given that each pound of rotational mass lost provides an equivalent performance gain as a 10 pound reduction in vehicle weight, the benefits of light alloy wheels on vehicle performance cannot be overlooked.
For example:
A reduction in the weight of the rim/tire assembly of 5lbs x 4 (all around the car) is equivalent to a 200lb weight reduction in vehicle weight (thats worth 0.200 in the 1/4 mile)
sounds like you are saving about 120 lbs the car has to pull by saving 3 lbs per tire
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 06:44 AM
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Given that each pound of rotational mass lost provides an equivalent performance gain as a 10 pound reduction in vehicle weight, the benefits of light alloy wheels on vehicle performance cannot be overlooked.
This is slightly inaccurate. At MOST, weight reduction at the very perimeter of the tire (right on the tread) will be equivalent to two pounds per wheel, or eight pounds for the whole car. Not ten pounds. I know, it's minor, but I think it's important to be accurate. If that weight is further in than the perimeter, the equivalent weight loss would be less, until you get to the hub, where there's no rotational inertia component and the multiplier would be 1.0.

Also...manufacturer's numbers for tire and wheel weights are often not very accurate. I'd be surprised if 10mm more tread with really results in three pound weight gain, although I suppose it's possible.

--Dan
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 07:00 AM
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"each pound of rotational mass lost provides an equivalent performance gain as a 10 pound reduction in vehicle weight"

Not correct - 1 pound of rotational mass at the tread will be equivalent to 2 pounds on the vehicle, 1 pound elsewhere will be somewhere between 1-2 pounds.

edit - I see Mach V Dan beat me to it with the absolutely correct info.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 08:15 AM
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You might see a difference in lap times, but I very much doubt that you could "feel" the difference, between 205 45 17 tires and 215 45 17 tires. If you don't track your car it doen't make any difference anyway.

The 215 tires are just a little larger diameter and will make your under-reporting speedometer more accurate.

Eight, ten or twelve pounds is nothing on a car. I think one of the cheapest performance mods, for me, would be to go on a diet and loose fourty pounds off my fat ***!

Dave
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DneprDave
Eight, ten or twelve pounds is nothing on a car. I think one of the cheapest performance mods, for me, would be to go on a diet and loose fourty pounds off my fat ***!

Dave
You da man, Dave, you da man
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 05:46 PM
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Once again, this has been very informative! Dave, I'm in the same boat as you my friend! I'm a "205" myself but used to be a "215". Lol...

I think I'm going to stick with the 215s. For a street-only car on crappy roads, I think it will be the right choice for me.

If I were going to be tracking the car, I would definitely pick a lighter rim and different tire size. To answer an earlier question, I don't know what the stock rims/run flats are, I haven't had them off the car yet. But the Camden wheels don't exactly look light, so I'm guessing I'll still shave off a couple pounds per corner.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 06:00 PM
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This thread is relevant to me as well. I bought new wheels and winter tires, and while I like the look of the wheels, I figured out too late that they are about 2.5lbs heavier than the stock alloys (which I sold.)

Does anyone happen to know the weight of the stock Dunlop SP5000 RunFlats? That's what I had before and I am planning to go to Yokohama Avid Envigors or maybe Bridgestone Potenzas if i decide on Summer rubber rather than A/S. If I can balance out the weight gain on my wheels with the weight loss on the rubber from the last RF, I won't feel like I need to spend more money on light wheels to break even.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 06:24 PM
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I can't comment on the weight of the original runflats but one thing I noticed when I was looking at tires was that for summer tires the General Exclaim UHPs came in at a light 18 pounds a piece for a 205/45/17. The Potenzas in the same size were 22 pounds as were the Avid Envigors.

So if your wheels are heavy, perhaps the Generals would be worth investigating for you.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 06:34 PM
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I lost 24 lbs off of my fat--- last year (sick) but the impact on the Mini was negligible (although I have to say, the seat fits better).

To me a loss of three lbs on each tire would clearly be felt. That, combined with the obviously lighter 15 inch wheels, to me would make a difference I could feel.

I come from a bicycling background -- we worked to shave grams off of our wheels. and I can tell you that I could clearly tell a difference in just a few grams of rotating mass.

Doggonit -- my old physics teacher told me to pay attention, and I just didn't do it. I really wish I could give you the equation to figure it out.

Just one more thing, the differences are, of course dependent on rotating speed, so it follows that the faster you go, the more difference it will make.

Use light wheels, go fast, you'll feel the difference, I promise.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by BlackCamden
I can't comment on the weight of the original runflats but one thing I noticed when I was looking at tires was that for summer tires the General Exclaim UHPs came in at a light 18 pounds a piece for a 205/45/17. The Potenzas in the same size were 22 pounds as were the Avid Envigors.

So if your wheels are heavy, perhaps the Generals would be worth investigating for you.

Thats great, thanks for the tip.. I will check those out.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 07:59 PM
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I have exhausted my vast knowledge on the subject.

Over and out.
 
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Old Jan 10, 2011 | 09:26 PM
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Thanks Herleman, you definitely make a strong case for lighter and smaller and your input is appreciated!

I guess it all comes down to the balance between function and looks as you brought up in an earlier post.

And Danny, no problem. G/L finding what you're looking for too!
 
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