So I went on a spirited cruise through some twisty roads with my 1addicts group. I decided to use my '10 R56 since I'd never really driven it outside of urban traffic jungles..

My car is a '10 S on 16" bridge spokes w/Continental A/S 195/55/16s.

First off, i decided to stay in the rear of the pack as I noticed that I was holding up the guy behind me so we switched. In turns, the car wasn't as confidence inspiring as I thought...lots of bodyroll, tires did not squeal but got loud and I felt like loss of grip would become sudden and without warning. I also felt that the car had significant understeer and would cause me to panic brake if I took a turn too hot.

Mind you I do not have the sport suspension or 17" performance tires but I'm wondering if either of these will help me out?

I'm also thinking of taking an HPDE so I can really establish the car's limits off public roads.

 

HPDE's are always the best and most enjoyable ways to learn you car's limits. There is a sticky posted about proper track setup if you look to go to an autoX or HPDE.

As for why your car felt like it was under performing, there are a number of items, some of which you listed above. The larger footprint of the 17" tires would definitely help, but the bigger problem is the all-season tires. I'm assuming you also have the run-flats on which are notorious for not breaking traction very uniformly at the limit, so it can be a spooky experience and not at all confidence inspiring. Summer-only rubber will net you a huge gain and would also be a must for any HPDE. After that, stiffer suspension will definitely help with the body roll. Also, being a front-wheel drive car, the understeer is inherently pretty high. You could add a slightly larger rear anti-roll bar and that would help with turn-in.

The traction control might be your other hinderence since it'll cut power at the first hint of wheel-slip and those 16" A/S run-flats don't have a whole lot of grip to begin with. If you have the money, all these items will help, but it seems like the best bet would be changing out the tires initially. I'd try those first and then keep adding piece by piece so you can build the car to drive the way you want and not go overboard right away and end up with an overly-stiff daily driver.

Hope that helps.

 

Yep... mine has the 17s, got rid of the run-flats, though everything else is stock. Compared to a regular car or SUV it handles great and I can see why everyone likes them. I can tell you that it is very forgiving and will probably save you from a bad result when entering a corner too hot. I do this all the time trying to induce at least some oversteer with late braking. Turning the DSC off makes it feel a bit better.

However, compared to my previous car ('07 Miata), it feels terrible... exhibiting tons of oversteer (relying on the traction control to reign it back in), body roll, and pitiful braking. I can still keep up with everybody at driving events, but the joy is gone. Again, I think most MINI drivers will not feel this way. But I have decided that I will never buy another FWD performance car.

 

You guys need a JCW.

 

Probably so... at least the suspension.

 

The factory all-season Continental runflats are rubbish for handling.

The only thing the car needs is some real performance street tires on it, and the car will be transformed - Dunlop Star Specs, Advan Neovas, Bridgestone RE-11, Kumho XS, Hankook RS3, etc.

 

You haven't said much about tire pressure, but if you are using the door sticker value of 33 psi, you will likely have a sloopy handling car. Putting good summer tires on and optimizing the tire pressure will go a long way. You can really improve it further with a proper (perhaps 22mm) rear sway bar. I'm convinced that the 17 inch wheels are much better, too (but way rougher in the daily grind to work, etc.). Your Miata, no doubt, had either 205/50/16s or 205/45/17s. Both are lower profile tires than the 195/55s on your Mini and I never saw a Miata with run-flats. So you may need to level the field a bit before comparing further.

Most of all, though, please remember that the Mini technique is very different from that used for a rear drive car like the MX5 (I had a 2006 MX5). The driving school experience will help you develop the FWD technique.

I would encourage you to keep pushing it and keep exploring its limits. You may very well be surprised how well the Mini will respond to being driven properly. I truly believe that my Justa would leave my Miata on a tight course. In a straight line, no way. But in the twisties, the little guy comes to life -- once you develop the technique.

 

"Turning the DSC off makes it feel a bit better."

Mine is completely undrivable with DSC on. It is a joy with it off.

 

"I truly believe that my Justa would leave my Miata on a tight course."

Given their relative performances in autocross, that would have be one wildly tight course.

 

1) Non-runflat tires on some lightweight wheels

2) Larger rear sway bar

3) HPDE with someone who knows how to drive a MINI

I agree with the poster who said his Justa will outrun a Miata when driven properly - and an S will leave it well behind. I've done it....

Oh, and don't turn the DCS off just yet, get a couple of HPDE's under your belt first.

 

Herleman, I believe you merged my post with that of the OP. But to your points, my MINI came with 205/45-17s as did my Miata and I do believe this tire size is much better than the 16" options. True, the Miata had great summer tires, while the MINI had the crappy runflats... big difference there. However, I went to 225s on the Miata, then settled on 215/45s. I think the slightly larger size helped the Miata. When it came time to replace the MINI runflats, I did the same 215/45 tire and bought a repair kit. Level field accomplished and huge improvement to the MINI as well. So, most definitely, better tires help. I highly recommend the OP to follow that path and continue to explore the limits. The MINI is a great car, just not one that I have bonded with.

You mention and I agree that technique is different for both cars and that is my disappointment. While I can easily drive both cars approaching their limits, the MINI seems more like work... everything from the body roll, understeer, the non-linear power from the turbo, the torque steer in the corners, the invasive nanny tech, etc. makes it seem like I am doing a lot more for the same result. The Miata had some body roll, but the RWD, 50/50 balance and the predictable power delivery made it easy to know how it was going to react in the twisties... plus, I really miss throttle-induced and trail-braking oversteer!

 

... and vice versa.

 

Oops... I didn't mean to turn this into a Mini vs. Miata thread. I was just relating my personal experience and impressions of my MINI to those of the OP. The MINI is my first FWD performance car... my prior performance cars have always been RWD and tail-happy.

 

Since this is my first car that I bought instead of leasing and have done lots of mods to and the fact that I had no idea what I was doing suspension wise but had money to burn, I went with the JCW suspension.

If I had it to do over, I would go with a lowering spring/strut setup like a NM/Koni FSD or even a full coilover setup.

If I knew what I was doing I would do coilovers with camber plates and get the car corner balanced. But I don't so the JCW suspension minus the RSB (I replaced that after a year with a H Sport Comp bar) is a good setup but it makes the car too firm. You have to ditch the run flats if you have the JCW suspension.

 

I, too, am thoroughly disappointed with the handling of my MCS, even after ditching the runflats (IMMEDIATELY after delivery), and upgrading the suspension shortly thereafter, with an H&R touring cup kit. The stock suspension is absolutely, positively, horrible. The shocks probably cost $5 apiece, and the suspension tuning is heavily compromised in an effort to ease the brutal nature of the stock runflat tires (in BMW/MINI marketing speak, they say that the suspension has been "tuned for runflats" as if that's a good thing. Trust me, it ain't.

Another huge problem is the overboosted power steering. There's just no feel. Why on earth do these cars even HAVE power steering? That's a valid question. They should at least give us a manual steering option. Hell, I'd pay extra for it. But no, we get crappy overboosted electric power steering. Baaaaaad idea.

To improve things, you must first banish the runflats to the nearest dumpster, or some unfortunate soul who is willing to buy them from you. This will help tremendously. Then, you must lose the crappy stock shocks. If you don't want to mess with ride height and/or keep the stock springs, then a simple swap to Bilstein HDs will work WONDERS for the car's handling and ride comfort. And they'll last forever, whereas the stock cheeselogs are probably shot by 20k miles (or sooner if the car is lowered on them). Lastly, a good set of sport springs, or a full coilover setup, takes you to another level. From there you can do bigger sway bars, fancy end links, engine compartment braces, etc. In the end, you might still be disappointed.

I'll get slammed by a few people that just think that this is a great-handling car. I suspect that most people who feel that way have never owned a truly great-handling car. The Mini just isn't in the same league.

 

Get rid of the run flats and put on 22mm rear anti sway bar and get some driving instruction if you feel you need it. I have a justa with 15" wheels and run Falken Azenis 615 205/50/15's and Hotchkis 25.5mm hollow competition rear sway bar and I run up front on the twisty outings, nobody is trying to pass me! The trick is the tires, make sure you get some good sticky rubber, forget the mileage, buy performance.

 

I thought the Mini handled quite well. But what would I know? My other cars must not handle well either.

 

What "truly great-handling cars" are you referring to?

If you think the MCS's handling is disappointing, I'm convinced your H&R kit is set up poorly. Or it's the only maybe it's the only high-powered FWD car you've owned.

While I agree, the stock suspension on the R56 is horrible...with coilovers it should be running circles around other cars on the track or in twisties. Being that my family is in the auto business, I've had the pleasure over the years of being able to drive a plethora of "truly great-handling cars" and see no reason why the MINI doesn't rank right up there with them.

Also, if the steering feels too overboosted and vague (which it does compared to an R53)....try the Alta PSRS bushings and it will fix it right up for you. (Rumor has it at least)

 

My 2 cts...

I took delivery of my MCS in November 09, It's fine. I suspect the runflats make the ride horrible, but it handles well. It's the first FWD car I've ever owned, but it has no problems keeping up with any of the people in the DC Metro Mini group. In fact I have to wait sometimes for them to catch up...lol

That said, the runflats will be leaving the building when worn out. They are pretty unpredicable at the limit, and I think I can cure the rear end stepping out mid corner when it hits a bump with better shocks. But overall, it very capable.

With a FWD car, you have to adjust your driving, and the old axiom, Slow in Fast out seems to apply.

Maybe my background, (IMSA FireHawk, GTU, SCCA regional, and National licenses and racing make me a bit better at feeling what a car is doing)

 

I have to agree with Richarsperry, and I wonder just what kind of "handling" these folks are looking for?

I drive my stock Clubman S (It does have a larger rear sway bar) over all sorts of roads, and yes, the suspension is a compromise - every one is - and yes, it handles differently than a rear drive car. So what?

These things in and of themselves do not make it a "bad" handling car. I think they did a pretty good job on the stock suspension, and unless you intend to spend all your time on track or carving back mountain roads, you need a compromise, otherwise the car will just kill you in potholed urban driving and on long trips.

How many times have we seen someone spend a lot of money on suspension parts and 6 months later those same parts are up for sale? Every day it seems....

 

I want to throw my two cents in as well, I agree with the original poster that the Cooper doesn't really perform well stock. My 94 Ford Probe GT was MUCH better handling than the Cooper with 16" rims.

However, I KNOW that all of the problem with the Cooper is the horrible tires. First strike is the runflats. Second is the small width 195, my next tires are going to be 215. Third, brand Continentals.

For me, I have a non-turbo engine and it easily spins the tires with the automatic, that should NOT be happening.

And I had a loner Cooper with the non-runflat 15" rims. DRASTICALLY better grip, I could go around a cloverleaf double my Cooper's speed. And my Cooper has the sport suspension, too. So get new non-runflat tires!

 

MC with sport suspension and non-run flats has none of the handling ills lamented here.

 

Interesting thread.

I think my MCS handles pretty well, all things considered. I was used to driving my Carrera 4S as a DD, and while its not the same experience, the MCS is a blast to drive every day while getting 35 mpg.

Bilstein HD shocks is a great idea though -

 

On the low end, something like an early Rabbit GTI, or more recently, a late MR2, RX-8, etc. On the higher end, just about anything from BMW, Porsche, Lotus, etc.

I've definitely had high-powered FWD cars in the past - a couple of VR6-equipped VWs, though to be fair, they handled poorly too. I'm not on coilovers, it's an H&R cup kit, which is "matched" shocks & springs. The shocks are Koni Yellows, thinly disguised with a coat of silver-grey paint, and an "H&R Made in Germany" sticker - despite still being stamped "Koni" and "made in Holland". The springs are H&R OE Sports. Allegedly the shocks are custom-valved to match. Ride quality is great, handling still disappoints.

I'm sure these cars CAN be made to handle really well, but it shouldn't be so difficult. The decision to shove runflats down our throats immediately compromises the stock setup, but simple mods (like mine) should produce better results than they have, IMHO.

 

MY justa has the sport suspension and the stock 15" wheels. The handling isn't bad but the body roll does not inspire confidence. My previous toy car was a 1st generation Miata and it felt much more stable when pushed to the limit. I tried most of the other economy hatchbacks before I picked a Mini as a more practical replacement for the Miata. The Mini is certainly a better handler than the under $25K competition.