What is up with the 2009 traction control thing? It says the Dynamic stability control is now standard but the Dynamic traction control is not available until December and no price is listed. Did they basically split up the stability and traction control and charge you more for the traction control if you want it? Worst of all do they charge you an extra $500 to be able to turn both systems completely off? If so that is ridiculous.

Is there any way to turn off the now standard stability control for autocross or track days if you don't order the dynamic traction control? Also the description for sport suspension says they it uses thicker sway bars to make it more sporty. Do the sport and non sport models already share the same springs/shocks? If so that's pretty stupid to get sport suspension.

 

That is DTC that wont be available until 12/08. ASC have been standard since 2007. DSC seems to be standard with 2009. In my 2007 MCS there is a button to turn off both ASC & DSC. It turns them both off or on. You can't have one on without the other.

 

I don't know if it is 2009 or what year but sometime soon. All cars sold in the US are required to have DSC. Another wonderful law from congress.

 

In the United States, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) study, analyzing data from 1997 -2002 in five States, found a 35 percent reduction in single-vehicle crash risk for cars and a 67 percent reduction for SUVs. Analyzing FARS data (Fatal Accident Reporting System – National), NHTSA’s study revealed a 30 %reduction in fatal single vehicle crashes and a 63% reduction in fatal single vehicle crashes in SUVs.

I don't think its stupid if it saves lives...

 

I have to agree with Stan - if we have the technology to save lives it makes sense to use it - especially when you can turn it off and its not intrusive unless needed.

Just my 2 cents. I'm sure that its different than other people's 2 cents.

 

You can fund a study to get any result that you want. The more the car does for you, the dumber and less attentive the driver gets.

 

I think as a whole drivers are currently pretty dumb and unattentive. That's the case whether or not DSC is fitted.

DSC just gives them a better chance when the inevtiable happens.

John.

 

I sort of agree, but what if the NHTSA decided to require speed governors on all new cars, not allowing them to go over the maximum allowable speed limit in the country (which is 75mph, I think). Surely that would save lives. Would you support that? Seems like parenting when the skills should be learned rather than limitations/requirements being enforced.

 

Expect in the future to not be able to turn it off. When antilock brakes 1st came out you could turn that off in certain cars. When was the last time you saw a car with that feature.

I have no problem with DSC and have always bought it if available but would rather have it a choice than be mandated.

 

sorry, wrong about the electronics (but you are right, there are a lot of crappy drivers out there --- and they need all the help they can get)

even top-line racing drivers (F1) do better with traction control and other electronic aids.

 

The more my car can do to save my a$$ the better. If I want to have more fun I'll take my bike to the track.

 

You're making an assumption there, which may or may not be backed up by hard facts. (I suspect not backed up.) The DSC (or ESP as they call it) thing has hard and persuasive statistics.

There's a big difference between your supposition and a good statistic.

 

"Good" statistics are hard to find, as I'm sure you know. The point is that we drivers could easily be forced to purchase vehicles with installed accessories, computer programs, mechanics, etc., that conform to rules and regulations believed to (or even realistically) make the roads 'safer', yet learning how to properly drive could also solve this issue.

While the statistical increase you cite certainly seems significant, the study deserves some scrutiny. Was DSC (or ESP or whatever) the only variable changed? Were the vehicles examined the same or were comparisons made across the broad ranges you mentioned (single vehicle accidence AND single vehicle SUV accidents)? Were the numbers of single vehicle SUV accidents included in the overall single vehicle numbers, or were these divided into exclusive sets?

Five years in five states? Which states and what kind of numbers are we talking here? It could easily be that a 30% and 67% decrease were actually the consequence of small numerical changes. The percentage of change without the N values is pretty pointless to anyone who knows anything about statistics.

The first point, as mentioned, is that statistics and studies, nationally sponsored or otherwise, can be incredibly misleading. The second point is that making policy decisions based on these potentially misleading statistics is silly at best and often idiotic at worst. Increasing base prices of vehicles to accommodate the inclusion of 'safety' features that could better be accomplished by proper driver training just transfers financial rather than individual safety responsibility to the consumer. I'd rather be trusted to have the sense to know how I can or cannot drive under certain circumstances. Some safety catches are nice, but driving up the price of vehicles due to what might be spurious statistical correlation irks me.

I've spent too many hours in graduate statistics courses and my personality is too much of a pain in the *** to let claims of statistical 'facts' pass by without questioning some (if not all) of their conclusions. I hope this doesn't sound like I'm being a jackass...I just need to see some numbers. I am willing to be convinced, I swear. I'm not just a naysayer.

 

I'm curious about this as well. Is there going to be a delay in production while every car destined for the U.S. is fitted with standard DSC?

 

Why would it delay production? They've been building up to this by offering DSC as an option since 2007. All MCS with the Sport Package got it. Now they just put it in all cars.

 

Good point.

I'm just anxious because I just ordered! Someone say "noob?"

 

If you think this is the thin end of the wedge, it's not. That happened about 40 years ago with seatbelts. Then there were head rests, shoulder belts, air bags, etc. We are well up on the wedge and on our way to vehicles that automatically brake when a car in front slows down.

Having everyone learn how to handle a car in a slide is a nice idea, but it isn't realistic. Some just don't have the ability to master it with sufficient skill. Few would reach expert level. Furthermore, we can't even keep people from driving drunk or sleepy. I can see letting them win their own Darwin award, but unfortunately, they often take others with them.

Even if everyone could become highly skilled at drift control, DSC does things no human can. Top gear did a video suggesting that even a skilled driver can benefit by such systems. If you would like to watch it:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=j-hHWSQhKuc&feature=related

 

Oh, you did not just do that...

 

We're already there... high end luxury cars have that radar cruise control that will go all the way to a stop if the car in front of it slams on brake/slows down... all without driver input.

I don't think I could put my safety in the hands of that device.... what if it failed?

"Hey, baby, check out this sweet feature! Ahhh!"

 

My A8 already does this.

 

Enough with the history lesson in safety devices. Both the girlfriend and I are experienced autocrossers at national level and have very good car control. We prefer to have no electronic traction/stability aids (except ABS obviously). All we want is a base model car with LSD and the ability to turn off electronic "saftey nets".

If you order a 09 with just the standard DSC can you turn it all the way off as it is or do you have to wait and order the stupid optional DTC to completely turn off both features. That's all I need to know.

 

Yes it can be turned off.

 

Thanks, the MiniUSA website is a bit confusing. Under the new DTC option the description is "Perfect for agressive driving, 2009 MINI's will allow drivers to turn DSC+DTC off and grant more responsibility to the pilot."

This makes it seem like you have to buy DTC in order to turn off DSC and DTC. I'm fine with having the now standard DSC as long as you can fully turn it off. The description says that it cuts engine output and applies brakes to spinning wheels etc which I do not want to any extent. Just plain old mechanical LSD is good for me as it will be a SCCA G-stock autocross car.

Also does the now standard DSC still give you the hill assist?

 

maybe a "attention elsewhere" software program can be developed for those driving while talking on cell phones to prevent lane crossing and sudden braking/turning without looking

 

Good call.