I know this will be huge flame-bait...but...

BMW is doing the right thing.

Duck and Cover!

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Okay, just got back up from under my desk.

Why you ask would a corporation as large as BMW stick it to little old MCO? Because they have to, that's why.

I went through this very thing several years back with Porsche and an online group called PorscheList...now rennlist.com. Great group and a lot of help with my then 20 year old 911.

Here's the deal in a nutshell. If they don't do everything they can to protect their trade marks, they lose the right to defend them against those who really deserve to be sued. It's not a matter of whether they want to do it, they simply have no choice.

Please understand, BMW and MINI love this forum and what it stands for in the community of MINI owners. They don't want to ruin it, they want it to change its name.

Let the flaming begin!

 

I would have to say I agree with you on that statement. On the other hand, a compromise between both parties could end all of this.

 

First reply, no flame. I e-mailed Mini and got a very nice reply back from a rep that basically said Mini very much encouraged the type of site MCO is, they're only problem was the general "moronic" public must be able to recognize clearly that the site is in no way endorsed, supported or affiliated with MINIUSA or BMW/NA. Remember the general public is not the members of this site. We know what is and is not official MINI. We recognize after market vs. dealer supported or corp. supported. Mini wants to make sure everyone else can as well. You have to admit this site does look extremely professional and Joe Normal the moron might confuse MiniUSA with MCO.

 

So what if they are confused by which site is BMW and which is not. They're morons, right?

Please explain why mazda, ford and others don't worry about the morons? Just look at Miata.net. In fact, Gary (the site owner) has Mazda as a paying sponsor.

 

I agree with all that's been said here. The other issue BMW has, and rightfully so, in my opinion, is the use of the MINI name and logo in any commercial enterprise that is not directly affiliated with BMW/MINI. There have been hundreds of cases throughout the years where small companies have tried to "piggy-back" onto larger brands. Usually it's not a problem unless there's copyright infringement (i.e. name and logo).

 

>>So what if they are confused by which site is BMW and which is not. They're morons, right?
>>
>>Please explain why mazda, ford and others don't worry about the morons? Just look at Miata.net. In fact, Gary (the site owner) has Mazda as a paying sponsor.
>>

I understand the sentiment, but alas I can not answer why Mazda, Ford, et al. do not defend their brand in the same way.

I will say this. In my dealings with Porsche during the time of the other lists demise and rebirth, they were also very supportive. But, in the end the name had to be changed.

In fact, we took up a collection and sent donations to the sites founder and host to help defray some of the costs of the changeover.

 

I have to say, it makes perfect sense for BMW to do what it is doing- any large carmaker should protect their name similarly. And if BMW doesn't give in soon, I think this board needs to change its name and move on. It's starting to get really depressing to come to this board any more and read about all the legal issues.

 

So, you argument is that BMW/Mini need to protect themselves from what, lawsuites from other lawyers?

 

Finally. Some people have decided to bring some common sense and clear thinking to this place. I think I pointed this same thing out on the Aug 13th update thread. MINI/BMW have an obligation to defend their brand, because if they don't defend it now, this will set a legal precedent which will deter them from being able to defend their brand in the future, when it might make a real difference.

Is it possible that Ford (a much older brand than BMW) has been less than vigilant in the past, and therefore is incapable of mounting a legitmate defense in the present? Just a thought.

Again, I love this board, and I hope it isn't required to change its name. I hope that a decent solution can come of all this, but I very much understand why BMW/MINI is doing this, and frankly, I think Mark does too. He seems to be most frustrated by the "changing of the ground rules" which seems to have happened.

Here's to a fair and equitable solution.

Cheers!

*EDIT*
P.S. In response to MGEAR: they are protecting a BRAND. If someone starts a site called MINIsucks.com or whatever and BMW wants to sue them for illegal use of a trademark, they might not have the power to sue if they allowed other illegal uses of the trademark to continue untouched. If your mother lets your father use four letter words but then scolds you for using the same four letter words, you could use the same defense, viz. "You let him do it, so why can't I?"

_________________

 

Since I know Mark is out of town for a few days I wanted to pipe in here on his behalf....in talking with him he is not upset at all that he has to change the name or that there is any percieved infringement...months and months ago when this all started all he wanted was some guidelines to follow so that he could make the site not be viewed badly in their eyes, face a lawsuit, or have to go through several renaming cycles....essentially the lawyers wanted him to just come back with a new name - they would then say yes...then in a week they would contact him again and said wait - no it isn't...when he asked why they never would answer. It wasn't until Mark brought this out into the public that they gave him a better answer as far as guidelines etc....if they would have done this 6 months ago none of this mess would have started and everyone would have been happy....from my frequent discussions with Mark I find this to be one of the biggest things that has upset him in the whole ordeal...it wasn't that he had to change the name.

 

BIMMERFAN,

No BMWNA does not have to stick it to little ol' MCO. True, BMW must protect their trademarks or face losing them, but they don't have to stick it to MCO to do so.

Have you ever heard of a website/company called MINIFINI.COM? Doesn't that site have MINI in the name? YES? Hmmm. Wait, there is a picture of a MINI on their opening page...no wait, there are TWO pictures of MINIs on their opening page.

And you know what else? There isn't a disclaimer anywhere on the opening page stating that MINIFINI.COM is independent of MINIUSA/BMWNA, is there?

Now, how could this be? How could BMWNA/MINIUSA allow this clear trademark infringement? Shouldn't MINIUSA/BMWNA have lawyers trying to shut them down?

No, they shouldn't. And the reason is because MINIUSA/BMWNA have come to an agreement with MINIFINI. I don't know the details, but clearly MINIFINI.COM is selling a product related to MINI's with MINIUSA/BMWNA's blessing. Is there a financial tie-in, did MINIFINI pay to use the trademark? Almost certainly in some way.

My suggestion all along has been that MCO has provided an incredible service to MINIUSA. Many, many members, myself included, used MCO as a research tool, and would not have bought a MINI without the community-assistance and camaraderie afforded by MCO. MCO adds value to the MINI pre-ownership (research phase), buying phase, and ownership experience. Even MINIUSA used the site to communicate to the MINI community, because they clearly know that MCO receives far more traffic than their own Owner's Lounge.

I say BMWNA/MINIUSA needs to recognize this fact, quantify the value of MCO to MINIUSA, and agree to accept this "goodwill" value in exchange for trademark usage. Simple. And if you think "goodwill" can't have a value, you haven't read many annual reports from major corporations involved in mergers and acquisitions.

See ya,
JS

 

Jstines-

Excellent point regarding goodwill. If they actually worked all of that out and made up a "receipt" for the goodwill in exchange for usage of the name MINI, then that would be precedent enough that they sold the rights to MCO, therefore protecting their rights to future brand protection. I like that!

MCO should find out what the marketing budget for all of the billboards and magazine ads in North America was. Someone could then determine the market penetration of those ads, and then determine the market penetration of MCO. Express the difference between the two as a percentage, multiply by the advertising budget, and there you go: a dollar amount of the MCO Goodwill! Mark could then offer this to BMW/MINI in exchange for use of the website name, and everyone walks away happy! Hooray!

Regarding MINIFINI--I was under the impression that they were in fact affiliated with BMW/MINI and that would sort of nullify any potential for legal action. But I really don't know about their relationship...

 

This sort of trademark, copywrite, and even Body Styling "borrowing" was a huge issue about 10 or 15 years ago years with Chevy, Ferrari, and yes, Ford. They and many other car companies were finally fed up with a HUGE amount of products being sold with their images or symbols used to imply factory approval. Not only was this a loss of significant revenue, if they let it go on they laid themselves open to potential injury lawsuits if these non-approved, but tacitly endorsed, parts failed and someone got hurt.

The made even the toy makers, like Hot Wheels and Johnny Lightning, comply with some sort of licensing or approval process! Chevy, and the others, whacked a large bunch of aftermarketers with big legal sticks, and even forced some out of business. This was well B4 the WWW, and dot-commers who use this new outlet to try and make money off of BMW's rightful Tmarks and Cwrites are foolish not to look over thier shoulder if they haven't got the Factory stamp of approval, sad to say. At least they aren't as bad as the music ind. thugs, or the Golf Club Hitmen.

BCNU,
Rob in Dago

 

I'm not going to flame you either. :smile:

The only thing I thought BMW ought to be flamed for was having the lawyers contact MCO themselves. Lawyers are there to advise a company, they should not represent a company, nor should lawyers be directly quoted, especially when a site like MCO is not trying to defame BMW/Mini in any way.

From a PR and even a bottom-line business point of view, they handled it very badly. The impression was that of a big company getting out their big guns to shoot down a little grass-roots site.

As a soon-to-be human relations professional I see a job opportunity! LOL!

 

The place where I take issue with MINI as being used or not, is that it is nealy impossible to find the VW groups similar to this due to the name restrictions that they caused. My thoughts on the matter are simply that BMW ought to let the name of MINI be used but require a prominent disclaimer that this is not a site run by BMW and BMW/Miniusa is not responsible for it's content. I just hate to have a site called: http://www.enthusisatsofthatquirkyli...inourtitle.com

 

Further BMW would benefit greatly from tossing out the crap they have for a owners lounge and hiring Mark to run MCO AS that owners lounge. This is what I expected from that site when I first looked at it, and frankly Mark has by some luck, some hard work, and no small amount of dedication, created the top MINI related website on the net. Mini2 ought to be brought in as well as the european owners lounge.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

 

******WARNING---LONG POST*******

OK, I am going to step in on this (FINALLY) and put in my 2 cents.

I believe the reason for all of this is clear. BMW cannot pick on MINI2 because it is not operated in the states. If it were, I believe they would be having similar problems.

With that being said, I can guarantee that there have been some people on here that bought a MINI because of their involvement with MINICOOPERONLINE.COM and the help they received from the members of this site answering questions, etc before the car was purchased.

I don't know if this has been said before, so here goes. I believe the biggest problem that BMW has with this site is the fact that everyone is not on here talking about how GREAT their MINI is. This site is an exchange for questions and and answers about anything and everything MINI. This includes PROBLEMS! I believe BMW has been paying special attention to this site, and has now realized that people are getting upset with their cars creaking, squeeking, stumbling, lurching, and the like. They are now tired of us talking about this so publicly on these threads that they have decided to do something about it.

Is the goal to warp Mark up in legal mumbojumbo so long that he can't afford to keep fighting? I can't answer that, but I can tell you that MINIFINI.COM doesn't have these problems because they are not a PUBLIC FORUM. I also believe that some people have stumbled in here and MINICOOPERONLINE has persuaded them NOT to buy a MINI becuase of all the negativity toward the problems other owners are having. This is most likely what BMW is trying to prevent. Someone happening onto this site and reading every other post about turn signals not working, or their car stumbling, or their HK system not performing well, etc.

I hope things all work out for the best in the end for both parties, but as long as this continues to be a public forum, the problem will remain. Do I side with BMW? Yes I do, because I work for BMW and I am glad that they take a stand and protect their name and my job with issues such as this. Do I side with Mark Ferguson on this? I certainly do because I think BMW is bullying him and this site with their deep pockets and high priced attorneys when this could have been resolved in a civil, less expensive way.

I am torn between this issue and it's especially hard since I work for the company inflicting the pain. As I stated above, this is just my 2 cents, and I hope everything works out best for both parties involved.

Cabbage


_________________

 

First, I agree that BMW/MINI does have a right to protect their trademarks. And by the way, when BMW bought out MG/Rover/Mini they got ALL the trademarks, not just the US ones. MINI2 is at risk, BMW just hasn't gone after them yet...

However protecting your trademarks doesn't mean you need to attack your enthusiast community and prevent them from using your marks. Many corporations allow the use of their trademarks and logos by third parties provided specific guidelines are met.

Look at Microsoft. If you take the exams to become a Microsoft Certified Professional, Microsoft will allow you to use their logos, provided you follow their rules. Those rules include not only how you display the Microsoft Tradmarks but also the EXACT colors you use to reproduce those marks down to the pantone color information. Microsoft allows the logo to be used because they understand that in the long run this helps their bottom line.

Actually it would make more sense to me if BMW/MINI told Mark that if he wants to keep the domain name that he should A.)Run MINI ads and B.)Provide a link to the MINIUSA website at a minimum.

 

>>No, they shouldn't. And the reason is because MINIUSA/BMWNA have come to an agreement with MINIFINI. I don't know the details, but clearly MINIFINI.COM is selling a product related to MINI's with MINIUSA/BMWNA's blessing. Is there a financial tie-in, did MINIFINI pay to use the trademark? Almost certainly in some way.......


I am not familiar with the site. Do you know this for a fact, or are you assuming that they have because the site is still up? Or, as in this case, are they working to make a change in name? Or, have they either paid for the use of the name, or have always had some form of affiliation with MINI?


>>I say BMWNA/MINIUSA needs to recognize this fact, quantify the value of MCO to MINIUSA, and agree to accept this "goodwill" value in exchange for trademark usage. Simple. And if you think "goodwill" can't have a value, you haven't read many annual reports from major corporations involved in mergers and acquisitions.


Goodwill is a very relative term. There is much information on this site that MINI would just as soon not appear. There is much that they like. The point is that this forum is good for the participants and may be good for MINI, but it is using a trademarked name. Period, end of story.

As for the fact that representatives from MINI use this site to communicate to its members is likely out of necessity to quiet false rumors, or respond to people posting false or misleading information that may be damaging to the brand.
>>
>>See ya,
>>JS

 

>>I'm not going to flame you either. :smile:
>>
>>The only thing I thought BMW ought to be flamed for was having the lawyers contact MCO themselves. Lawyers are there to advise a company, they should not represent a company, nor should lawyers be directly quoted, especially when a site like MCO is not trying to defame BMW/Mini in any way.
>>
>>From a PR and even a bottom-line business point of view, they handled it very badly. The impression was that of a big company getting out their big guns to shoot down a little grass-roots site.
>>
>>As a soon-to-be human relations professional I see a job opportunity! LOL! :smile:

As for your contention that the lawyers shouldn't have been the people to contact MCO, I'm afraid I must disagree. The lawyers are exactly the people to make contact because that is their job...to represent the company in matters of a legal nature.

This is not to say that someone from marketing or PR shouldn't also be involved, but when it comes to legal issues, the lawyers speak and the others follow.

 

Cheers!
Clover

 

The big beef is a commercial site that trades on the MINI name and (for a while there) the MINI trademark. Mark addressed the latter with no harm done to the site. In fact, the new logo's an improvement. A new name will make the MINI lawyers happy and may even make the site better in the long run.

 

FYI, MINI-FINI is affiliated with BMW/MINI. That's one of the reasons the line is only offered through dealers...

 

I don't know the details, but I am working off of the assumption that MINIFINI has been authorized to use the MINI name, since they distribute their products through the MINI dealership network here in the US and the installation instructions carry the MINI logo. I'm sure MINI could authorize the use of the name MINI in MCO's URL, if they chose to do so.


I agree 100%. One of the best things about this site is that it is independent, so MINI can't prevent free speech. Still, the good things said far outweigh the bad, and the bad that is spoken is often accurate, I'm afraid. My issue is that the owner of the trademark did nothing to protect their trademark for quite a long time and even participated in the site.

Imagine if I owned a vacant wooded lot next to my home. One day, I notice that some people are standing on my lot pointing and looking around. The next day, I notice the people are clearing brush and small bushes from the property. I don't say a thing. I just continue to look out my window. A week passes, and I now see that the people have cleared the lot and are beginning to lay a foundation. Still, I just continue to look out my window. A few months later, a huge home has been framed on my lot. I still don't protest the fact that a home is being constructed on the lot which I own. Instead, I actually walk over and offer my assistance to the workers constructing the home. I tell them if they need anything, to please call me, and I'll be glad to help them. A year later, a huge home is constructed, and it's a beauty. I continue to walk over occasionally and offer my assistance to the finish carpenters as they put the finishing touches on the home. Two years pass, and the home is complete. Everything is finished.

The next day, I hire some lawyers and send them next door and have them speak to the owners of the house. The lawyers tell them that they have built their home on my lot, and it is totally unacceptable. The lawyers tell them they will have to move their home or face legal ramifications.

Is there anything wrong with this picture? Why did the owner of the lot wait so long before reacting? I think even my kindergarten-aged son could tell you what is wrong.


What about all those leaking coolant tanks? Were those rumors, too? Thank goodness I didn't have to deal with that, but I know personally those who did.

If MCO users are beginning to become more vocal in their frustration with the quality of the product, I'd suggest MINI not ignore or worse shoot the messenger, but instead acknowledge known problems, state what is being done to correct the problems, and then quickly implement solutions to those problems. I assure you, if the reviewers of the auto-trade magazines had test-driven my car, MINI would have had trouble giving them away after the reviews were in.

See ya,
JS

 

Bimmerfan,

I said this thread was your 2nd post; I see it is your 4th. I'd hate to be accused of spreading false rumors.

See ya,
JS