Drivetrain Getting pinging with your pulley and ECU?
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
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From: Palo Alto, CA
I have a 2/03 build date MCS. I only use 91 octane gas, and always Chevron with Techron. I've just started to get pinging 1 month after I had the pulley and Evotech ECU mod done. I didn't have any for the first couple of weeks after the mods. This has happened with the last two tankfuls of Chevron 91 octane w/Techron. I never had pinging with the stock ECU and pulley.
Someone said in another thread that the knock sensor will no longer work if the ECU has been reprogrammed, since the spark is aggressively advanced more than stock, much more than the knock sensor can compensate for. Is this true?
I understand that the ECU is supposed to be adaptive, but does retarding the timing, (due to knocking) part of this adaptive process? And why did it appear to adapt by causing more pinging?
Anyone else experiencing this?
I don't want to have to routinely buy octane booster or race gas just to run our MINI!
Someone said in another thread that the knock sensor will no longer work if the ECU has been reprogrammed, since the spark is aggressively advanced more than stock, much more than the knock sensor can compensate for. Is this true?
I understand that the ECU is supposed to be adaptive, but does retarding the timing, (due to knocking) part of this adaptive process? And why did it appear to adapt by causing more pinging?
Anyone else experiencing this?
I don't want to have to routinely buy octane booster or race gas just to run our MINI!
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,241
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From: USA
No pinging here. I don't have the ECU changes though. Pulley
installed 6000 miles ago. I even ran some mid-octane (2 tanks)
to compare and no problems with ping.
If you are buying
Chevron anyplace other than California, I think most states
allow independent stations to buy gas from any distributor they
want. You don't see too many "Chevron" trucks on the road.
I once was offered in on a deal to import gas and the distribution
network covered all different 'brand' names.
installed 6000 miles ago. I even ran some mid-octane (2 tanks)
to compare and no problems with ping.
If you are buying Chevron anyplace other than California, I think most states
allow independent stations to buy gas from any distributor they
want. You don't see too many "Chevron" trucks on the road.
I once was offered in on a deal to import gas and the distribution
network covered all different 'brand' names.
When are you getting your pinging? Is it most noticable during start-up and at low rpm?
I have the pulley and Evotech software. About a month after getting it I too noticed some pinging during start-up and at low rpm. Finally diagnosed it and was surprised. My resonator (Borla Sport) had melted and sounded like marbles were rolling around inside!
Got it replaced and sound is gone.
This may or may not apply depending on your exhaust, but something to check anyway.
I have the pulley and Evotech software. About a month after getting it I too noticed some pinging during start-up and at low rpm. Finally diagnosed it and was surprised. My resonator (Borla Sport) had melted and sounded like marbles were rolling around inside!
Got it replaced and sound is gone.
This may or may not apply depending on your exhaust, but something to check anyway.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
From: Fort Collins, CO
I don't have experience with the pulley/ECU - yet. But on my turbocharged cars I've had some success by going to different (sometimes colder) spark plugs. Sometimes even regapping the plugs will help.
Antranic - Not sure why the resonator failed. May have just been a bad run. New one is holding up fine so far. I do track the car quite often and run between 5000 rpm and redline most of the time of the track. Maybe I'm just generating too much heat! 
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
When your engine pings, that means your Octane is too low, try putting higher octane in, check to see if you timeing is off. Check to see your heat levels, and might want to check you ECU, to see if your engine is starving of fuel, or too lean. Alot lot of things could make it ping.. ping..
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Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
From: LA LA LAND
I am new here, waiting for my 04 Peper white mcs. There is some great information available on audi world in the a4 forum (the new model) about plugs and performance upgrades. You might want to pop over to audi world and do a search the debate links to some great articles on the subject. But the gerneral consensus was that with up rated boost and timing copper plugs and colder temps helped avoid pinging.
2nd Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 110
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From: Fort Lauderdale
With 91 octane gas, Im not surprised that you're getting some ping, especially on hotter days.
The pully increased your boost from the supercharger. Remember, boost is nothing more than cramming air into the motor. The more you squeeze air together, the more heat you create from the friction between air molecules. Your intercooler is only rated to cool the amount of air flowing through at stock boost levels.
More heat means more likely to pre ignite your air fuel mixture.......or detonate.
The ECU upgrade leans out your air fuel mixture, meaning less gasoline. The stock MINI ECU settings has the car running very rich just for that reason, detonation protection. More fuel keeps the mixture cooler, the cooler mixture is less prone to pre-ignition but the air fuel ratio is less than ideal for making power. The ECU upgrade gets you closer to better air fuel ratio for power but now cylinder temps go up and are more likely to cause detonation.
Ping, knock, detonation.....all it is is the air fuel mixture igniting pre-maturely from heat. The resultant ignition way before top dead center, causes the flame front or explosion that normally creates the power to rotate your crank and give you horsepower, to slam against the top of your piston while the piston is traveling up. The ringing that you're hearing is the sound of your crank, kinda like whacking it with a hammer.
Detonation, left untreated, will eventually cave in the tops of your pistons, collapse the ring lands, spin rod bearings and all kinds of other nasty stuff.
Higher octane gas is more resistant to pre-ignition because the heat/energy levels needed to burn it are higher. If you dont have higher octane gas available in your area, at least get a good octane booster to add in your tank at fill ups.
Detonation causes more engine failures than any other reason.
The pully increased your boost from the supercharger. Remember, boost is nothing more than cramming air into the motor. The more you squeeze air together, the more heat you create from the friction between air molecules. Your intercooler is only rated to cool the amount of air flowing through at stock boost levels.
More heat means more likely to pre ignite your air fuel mixture.......or detonate.
The ECU upgrade leans out your air fuel mixture, meaning less gasoline. The stock MINI ECU settings has the car running very rich just for that reason, detonation protection. More fuel keeps the mixture cooler, the cooler mixture is less prone to pre-ignition but the air fuel ratio is less than ideal for making power. The ECU upgrade gets you closer to better air fuel ratio for power but now cylinder temps go up and are more likely to cause detonation.
Ping, knock, detonation.....all it is is the air fuel mixture igniting pre-maturely from heat. The resultant ignition way before top dead center, causes the flame front or explosion that normally creates the power to rotate your crank and give you horsepower, to slam against the top of your piston while the piston is traveling up. The ringing that you're hearing is the sound of your crank, kinda like whacking it with a hammer.
Detonation, left untreated, will eventually cave in the tops of your pistons, collapse the ring lands, spin rod bearings and all kinds of other nasty stuff.
Higher octane gas is more resistant to pre-ignition because the heat/energy levels needed to burn it are higher. If you dont have higher octane gas available in your area, at least get a good octane booster to add in your tank at fill ups.
Detonation causes more engine failures than any other reason.
Neutral
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6
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From: LA LA LAND
I had a few minutes to search for you, hope this helps
null<A HREF="http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/344043.phtml" TARGET="_blank">Techron Issues
</A><A HREF="http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/259120.phtml" TARGET="_blank">General Plug Discourse
</A>nullMore Plug Discourse
null<A HREF="http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/344043.phtml" TARGET="_blank">Techron Issues
</A><A HREF="http://forums.audiworld.com/a4gen2/msgs/259120.phtml" TARGET="_blank">General Plug Discourse
</A>nullMore Plug Discourse
Try using Toluene as an octane booster. You can get it at paint supply stores or any of the mega-hardwares. Same thing the refiners use.
I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
Go to tour nearest Mega paint store (not Home Depot they don't have it) buy a 5 gallon pail of Tolulene
Mix 1.5 gallon Tolulene to 11.5 gallon 91 octane gas........Voila 98octane super duper gas...it works.
peter
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Echoing what some other others have said, you should not be using 91 octane with an ECU program designed for 93 octane. Contact your chiptuner to get the correct file for your fuel availability.
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
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From: Palo Alto, CA
Many thanks for all the great posts guys!
Yes, I live in California, and the best we can get here at the pump is 91 octane. Randy did the mods along with 30 or so other MINIs that week, so I'm pretty sure he knows the octane limitations here. We were able to get pre-mod and post-mod dyno readings at this pulley party as well.
I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but during the pulley party, the ambient temperature during the dyno runs were 105 degrees, and my stock, pre-mods flywheel output was a measly 138 HP, a record low.
After I got such a low reading, Randy asked what fuel I used, and that's when I told him I used Chevron 91 octane exclusively. I don't recall him entering any specific parameter for that however, when I saw him flash my ECU.
After the pulley and ECU, I was elated to get 178 HP at the flywheel, a gain of 40 HP........with stock intake and exhaust. But possibly the cars with the biggest HP gain are more prone to the pinging problem?
Furthermore, my air/fuel ratio was so low, that above 4,700 RPM, it was completely off the scale, both stock, AND after the mods......BELOW 10:1. Randy says that this ultra rich mxture could have been due to the scorching heat that day, which can throw off the ECU. Could this cause the pinging problem a few tankfuls later?
I may just try 76 gas the next fill up to see what happens. Has 76 been good to your MINI's?
Yes, I live in California, and the best we can get here at the pump is 91 octane. Randy did the mods along with 30 or so other MINIs that week, so I'm pretty sure he knows the octane limitations here. We were able to get pre-mod and post-mod dyno readings at this pulley party as well.
I don't know if this has anything to do with it, but during the pulley party, the ambient temperature during the dyno runs were 105 degrees, and my stock, pre-mods flywheel output was a measly 138 HP, a record low.
After I got such a low reading, Randy asked what fuel I used, and that's when I told him I used Chevron 91 octane exclusively. I don't recall him entering any specific parameter for that however, when I saw him flash my ECU.
After the pulley and ECU, I was elated to get 178 HP at the flywheel, a gain of 40 HP........with stock intake and exhaust. But possibly the cars with the biggest HP gain are more prone to the pinging problem?
Furthermore, my air/fuel ratio was so low, that above 4,700 RPM, it was completely off the scale, both stock, AND after the mods......BELOW 10:1. Randy says that this ultra rich mxture could have been due to the scorching heat that day, which can throw off the ECU. Could this cause the pinging problem a few tankfuls later?
I may just try 76 gas the next fill up to see what happens. Has 76 been good to your MINI's?
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: The beautiful central coast of California
Letsmotor,
Randy did my pulley, and Evotech, I also live in CA.
NO pinging, no problems. I however do not use Chevron. A few years ago befor gas got so damn high I would have said I wouldn't run that crap if you paid me. (used to test gas for a living)
Different today. First thing I think I'd try before you go nuts with tolulene,etc. is simply do what you said --- switch gas stations and see what happens. Sometimes some stations will accumulate a fair amount of crap in the tanks (water, etc.)
Your MINI sould NOT be pinging if everything is OK regardless of air temp.
Keep it simple before getting carried away, and research the basics.
Good luck, Woody
Randy did my pulley, and Evotech, I also live in CA.
NO pinging, no problems. I however do not use Chevron. A few years ago befor gas got so damn high I would have said I wouldn't run that crap if you paid me. (used to test gas for a living)
Different today. First thing I think I'd try before you go nuts with tolulene,etc. is simply do what you said --- switch gas stations and see what happens. Sometimes some stations will accumulate a fair amount of crap in the tanks (water, etc.)
Your MINI sould NOT be pinging if everything is OK regardless of air temp.
Keep it simple before getting carried away, and research the basics.
Good luck, Woody
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 556
Likes: 0
From: Fort Collins, CO
>>Try using Toluene as an octane booster. You can get it at paint supply stores or any of the mega-hardwares. Same thing the refiners use.
>>I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
works great as an octane booster. Also does wonders in helping your rubber fuel lines dissolve. Be careful of a regular diet of Toluene.
>>I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
works great as an octane booster. Also does wonders in helping your rubber fuel lines dissolve. Be careful of a regular diet of Toluene.
>>>>Try using Toluene as an octane booster. You can get it at paint supply stores or any of the mega-hardwares. Same thing the refiners use.
>>>>I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
>>works great as an octane booster. Also does wonders in helping your rubber fuel lines dissolve. Be careful of a regular diet of Toluene.
Interesting. Based on my reading toluene is a component of pump gas. If I am wrong, I certainly would like to know why.
For a start, check out this posting. Please point out what is not valid. I am NOT being a smart ###. I really would like to know if I should not be using toluene.
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/95187.phtml
Thanks
>>>>I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
>>works great as an octane booster. Also does wonders in helping your rubber fuel lines dissolve. Be careful of a regular diet of Toluene.
Interesting. Based on my reading toluene is a component of pump gas. If I am wrong, I certainly would like to know why.
For a start, check out this posting. Please point out what is not valid. I am NOT being a smart ###. I really would like to know if I should not be using toluene.
http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/95187.phtml
Thanks
4th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: Saratoga, CA
I was part of the same pulley party with Randy. I did ask Randy if the Evotech was 91 octane rated. Randy said it was one of the criteria he uses for the download, and he knew that we are stuck with 91 octane here in CA (although I am told that there are a few 76 stations in the Bay Area that have 93 octane). I have no pinging issues and the same dyno horsepower at 178. I have the Madness intake and stock exhaust. I also use Chevron most of the time, but also 76. I have not used any other brand of gas in my MCS.
My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
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From: Palo Alto, CA
>>I was part of the same pulley party with Randy. I did ask Randy if the Evotech was 91 octane rated. Randy said it was one of the criteria he uses for the download, and he knew that we are stuck with 91 octane here in CA (although I am told that there are a few 76 stations in the Bay Area that have 93 octane). I have no pinging issues and the same dyno horsepower at 178. I have the Madness intake and stock exhaust. I also use Chevron most of the time, but also 76. I have not used any other brand of gas in my MCS.
>>
>>My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
>>
>>
gosharks,
I haven't noticed any screeching type sound when I'm accelerating. I will be at Thunderhill next Thursday as well. We can compare our cars with each other. (Is yours the yellow/black" Hot Wheels" car)? However, since my intake is still stock, I would expect my supercharger sound to be more muted than yours. Did Randy take your car out for a test drive after he did the mods? Did he notice anything unusual?
>>
>>My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
>>
>>
gosharks,
I haven't noticed any screeching type sound when I'm accelerating. I will be at Thunderhill next Thursday as well. We can compare our cars with each other. (Is yours the yellow/black" Hot Wheels" car)? However, since my intake is still stock, I would expect my supercharger sound to be more muted than yours. Did Randy take your car out for a test drive after he did the mods? Did he notice anything unusual?
4th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 315
Likes: 0
From: Saratoga, CA
>>>>I was part of the same pulley party with Randy. I did ask Randy if the Evotech was 91 octane rated. Randy said it was one of the criteria he uses for the download, and he knew that we are stuck with 91 octane here in CA (although I am told that there are a few 76 stations in the Bay Area that have 93 octane). I have no pinging issues and the same dyno horsepower at 178. I have the Madness intake and stock exhaust. I also use Chevron most of the time, but also 76. I have not used any other brand of gas in my MCS.
>>>>
>>>>My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>gosharks,
>>
>>I haven't noticed any screeching type sound when I'm accelerating. I will be at Thunderhill next Thursday as well. We can compare our cars with each other. (Is yours the yellow/black" Hot Wheels" car)? However, since my intake is still stock, I would expect my supercharger sound to be more muted than yours. Did Randy take your car out for a test drive after he did the mods? Did he notice anything unusual?
I have an EB/W MCS with the pulley/intake/ECU/H Sports/Madness Swaybar, and I couldn't pull the trigger on my wallet for the Magnaflow or NRP exhausts (I don't care for the tips on either one, but I have been leaning towards the MF for a while now). Randy did test drive my car and commented that the power was pretty strong, but did not notice any unusual sounds. I may stop by either MINI or a performance shop nearby just to be sure. Thunderhill is about a 3 hour drive, I would hate if something went wrong at the track. You must be part of the MINI of Mt. View first annual MINI event. It should be a blast!!!
>>>>
>>>>My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>gosharks,
>>
>>I haven't noticed any screeching type sound when I'm accelerating. I will be at Thunderhill next Thursday as well. We can compare our cars with each other. (Is yours the yellow/black" Hot Wheels" car)? However, since my intake is still stock, I would expect my supercharger sound to be more muted than yours. Did Randy take your car out for a test drive after he did the mods? Did he notice anything unusual?
I have an EB/W MCS with the pulley/intake/ECU/H Sports/Madness Swaybar, and I couldn't pull the trigger on my wallet for the Magnaflow or NRP exhausts (I don't care for the tips on either one, but I have been leaning towards the MF for a while now). Randy did test drive my car and commented that the power was pretty strong, but did not notice any unusual sounds. I may stop by either MINI or a performance shop nearby just to be sure. Thunderhill is about a 3 hour drive, I would hate if something went wrong at the track. You must be part of the MINI of Mt. View first annual MINI event. It should be a blast!!!
Thread Starter
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1st Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 40
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From: Palo Alto, CA
>> You must be part of the MINI of Mt. View first annual MINI event. It should be a blast!!!
>>
Yep! Really looking forward to it! Just hope I can get this pinging issue sorted out by then though. I'd hate to be detonating the dickens out of my engine at the track!
_________________
'03 MCS, EB/BLK, pkgs#1,2,3, Nav, H/K, PDC, Anthracite w/black leather, Alta pulley, Evotech ECU, SSR Comps
>>
Yep! Really looking forward to it! Just hope I can get this pinging issue sorted out by then though. I'd hate to be detonating the dickens out of my engine at the track!
_________________
'03 MCS, EB/BLK, pkgs#1,2,3, Nav, H/K, PDC, Anthracite w/black leather, Alta pulley, Evotech ECU, SSR Comps
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
Detonation is load related but resonator rattle is not. If detonation, the sound should be much worse when loading the engine accelerating up a hill. If the resonator is funky, it will rattle loaded or unloaded.