>>>> You must be part of the MINI of Mt. View first annual MINI event. It should be a blast!!!
>>>>
>>
>>Yep! Really looking forward to it! Just hope I can get this pinging issue sorted out by then though. I'd hate to be detonating the dickens out of my engine at the track!
>>
>>_________________
>>'03 MCS, EB/BLK, pkgs#1,2,3, Nav, H/K, PDC, Anthracite w/black leather, Alta pulley, Evotech ECU, SSR Comps

The 100 octane that they sell at the track should help

 

>>>>>>Try using Toluene as an octane booster. You can get it at paint supply stores or any of the mega-hardwares. Same thing the refiners use.
>>>>>>I believe there are some good links on MINI2 concering the use of toluene. Also one or two on MCO. Much cheaper than using the so-called octane boosters. I am using a quart to 10 gallons of BP 93 octane. No ping with my MCS with the pulley.
>>>>works great as an octane booster. Also does wonders in helping your rubber fuel lines dissolve. Be careful of a regular diet of Toluene.
>>
>>Interesting. Based on my reading toluene is a component of pump gas. If I am wrong, I certainly would like to know why.
>>For a start, check out this posting. Please point out what is not valid. I am NOT being a smart ###. I really would like to know if I should not be using toluene.
>>http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/95187.phtml
>>Thanks
>>

Newt: Someone did a test on AW. He soaked a rubber fuel hose in regular gas and in pure Toluene overnight. The hose in the toluene showed signifcant degradation.
Here's another post
http://forums.audiworld.com/a4/msgs/1567865.phtml
I used it on my A4 once, shortly thereafter I had trouble with the intake sensor, Probably a coincidence since it is upline from the fuel injectors, but maybe not. I'm not saying never use it, I'm saying a steady diet MAY be harmful to some of your components. Maybe it's like the deterioration that gasahol does to the fuel lines in older cars. Just want everyone to be fully aware of the pro's and con's.

 

Thanks for the response. I only use between one and two quarts per 10 gallons. Too much of a good thing can be bad. Maybe I should try to find higher octane gas.

 

This may answer some of your questions. I'm sure most of you know what's happening when you hear detonation/pinging. But for those of you that don't know, here's the deal. The pistons are driven down by the combustion of the fuel/air in the combustion chamber. Since the fuel doen't burn instantly. There must be some lead time in the ignition process so that the hottest part of the flame occures just as the piston is at the beginning of it's down cycle (the power stroke). Lite the fuel too late and the piston is half way down the barrel before you get the punch. This looses power. But if you light the fuel to early, and the piston isn't even over the top of the cycle, that's bad! When this happens the piston is trying to actually rotate the crank backwards, since it can't go backards, the piston then tries to go out of the side of the engine. That's the rattling or pinging you hear.
The reason low octane fuel will ping, is because it actually burns faster than high octane fuel. Pushing the piston down before it reachs the top.
Keep in mind that this is only happening when you take the timing and fuel maps to the extreme limits. Also a car at sea level in California, during a 102 degree heat wave, in bumper to bumper traffic is a different environment than the cooler summers of Denver Co. I'm surprised however that these problems were not picked up on the dyno when the software was developed? The exhaust gas analizer would normally let you see if you are running too lean, and detonation would be experienced while on the dyno under load.
A pinging engine will eventually self destruct. Until you get it fixed, run high octane fuel, no heavy loads, and no long trips.

 

>>Thanks for the response. I only use between one and two quarts per 10 gallons. Too much of a good thing can be bad. Maybe I should try to find higher octane gas.

I'm not sure I would add anything that would possibly damage the catalytic converter. I know that the cat. is sensitive to any type of additives. Although it may patch the detonation problem, it may create new ones.

 

>>My only concern is hearing a very high pitched sound on hard acceleration that is a bit worrisome. It must be the supercharger, but the sound is more like a screeching sound than a supercharger whine. I only notice this in second and third gear, acceleration between 3 to 4500 rpm's (I only notice when the windows are down). Has anyone else noticed this??? And please tell me that this is normal, I have a track day scheduled next Thursday at Thunderhill.
>>
>>

The screeching sounds like the belt slipping, did you install a shorter belt with the pulley. What is your boost ??

 

Here are some links on toluene. I know a few WRX guys who swear by the stuff. Kind of hard to find a diffinitive answer. I think the key is moderation, shoot for 96-98 octane and I think you should be fine for everyday use, but some people go crazy and try to run 114 octane day in and day out. Hope this helps. Try a google search for: toluene octane booster, and you will find tons of links to threads of automotive forums where people are having the same discussions. Keep us updated if you find any new info.

Blake

Links:

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene/

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene/tol2.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread/t-25471.html

 

Here are 3 links that list the use of toluene as an octane booster -

http://www.gadiv.com/product_aromatic/toluene.htm
http://www.mapllc.com/products/petro...s/toluene.html
http://www.shellchemicals.com/toluen...98,277,00.html

 

the belt tensioner is spring operated, tension force is proportional to the amount of spring compression. The stock pulley and belt length have the tensioner setting at about .5" more compression than the 15% pulley and the stock belt...which means that there is less force on the tensioner idler unless you change belts. You also have less margin for belt stretch.

the stock pulley is about 2.6" dia; with about 270 degrees belt wrap, that works out to 6" of belt on the pulley. The 15% pulley has 15% less belt on the pulley, about 7/8", so you need a belt 7/8" shorter than stock to get the stock belt tension back.

Given that Napa dealers carry the shorter belts for less than $20, why wouldn't you use one?

 

>>I'm surprised however that these problems were not picked up on the dyno when the software was developed? The exhaust gas analizer would normally let you see if you are running too lean, and detonation would be experienced while on the dyno under load.
>>

Thanks again for all the helpful info guys!

The dyno run charts showed that the air/fuel ratio was off the charts, (below 10 to 1) at any rpms above 4,600 rpms both before, AND after the pulley and ECU remap, so I'm still running extremely rich. Randy mentioned the fact that the ambient temperature was 105 degrees during my runs (WHEW!) could cause the ECU to go into an auto rich mode though. No mention was made of hearing detonation during the dyno runs, nor did Randy or I notice any on the post-mod test drive Randy did with me in my car.

Thanks

_________________
'03 MCS, EB/B, pkgs#1,2,3, Nav, H/K, PDC, Anthracite w/blk leather, Alta pulley, Evotech ECU, Anthracite SSR Comps

 

I think you have something else wrong with your car. The air/fuel ratio gets rich when the engine gets hot. If your car was lean you would have more of a chance of haveing knock. And yes, all the knock sensors and all the other built programmed features to make sure nothing bad happens to your engine are not changed by Evotech.

 

>>I think you have something else wrong with your car. The air/fuel ratio gets rich when the engine gets hot. If your car was lean you would have more of a chance of haveing knock. And yes, all the knock sensors and all the other built programmed features to make sure nothing bad happens to your engine are not changed by Evotech.
Even if your mixture gets rich, if you add too much timing detonation will occure. Also keep in mind when you add a pulley you are not only increasing boost you are producing the boost much sooner. As you add boost, you may want to decrease timing to avoid detonation. Add a slightly lower octane fuel, to slightly warmer temperatures, and a nice long up hill grade, and your Pulley Party will end in a Piston Party within a few thousand miles.
Also you do not want to rely on your Knock sensors to pull out timing for poorly designed software. Remember the sensors a retarding the timing when they sense Knock(detonation) That means your engine is pinging for a bit each time you accrellerate. And what if the knock sensor goes bad??

 

A healthy ignition timing curve looks like a mirror image of the boost curve.

 

>>>>I think you have something else wrong with your car. The air/fuel ratio gets rich when the engine gets hot. If your car was lean you would have more of a chance of haveing knock. And yes, all the knock sensors and all the other built programmed features to make sure nothing bad happens to your engine are not changed by Evotech.
>>Even if your mixture gets rich, if you add too much timing detonation will occure. Also keep in mind when you add a pulley you are not only increasing boost you are producing the boost much sooner. As you add boost, you may want to decrease timing to avoid detonation. Add a slightly lower octane fuel, to slightly warmer temperatures, and a nice long up hill grade, and your Pulley Party will end in a Piston Party within a few thousand miles.
>>Also you do not want to rely on your Knock sensors to pull out timing for poorly designed software. Remember the sensors a retarding the timing when they sense Knock(detonation) That means your engine is pinging for a bit each time you accrellerate. And what if the knock sensor goes bad??

Good advice.
I bought a new tankful today, this time of Union 76 Premium grade, which for here is 91 octane. I took it into the hills for about a 150 mi drive today. The pinging is getting better, but still slightly there as I first get onto some heavy throttle at RPMs bellow 3,000 or so. We'll see if things continue to improve as I burn up this tank of 76 gas. I have had a bad tank of Chevron 91 other times as well in another car. If it doesn't go all the way away, I may have to put in a can of octane boost since I have a track day Thursday at Thunderhill in CA, so will have no time to get my ECU checked out by then.

 

>>>>>>I think you have something else wrong with your car. The air/fuel ratio gets rich when the engine gets hot. If your car was lean you would have more of a chance of haveing knock. And yes, all the knock sensors and all the other built programmed features to make sure nothing bad happens to your engine are not changed by Evotech.
>>>>Even if your mixture gets rich, if you add too much timing detonation will occure. Also keep in mind when you add a pulley you are not only increasing boost you are producing the boost much sooner. As you add boost, you may want to decrease timing to avoid detonation. Add a slightly lower octane fuel, to slightly warmer temperatures, and a nice long up hill grade, and your Pulley Party will end in a Piston Party within a few thousand miles.
>>>>Also you do not want to rely on your Knock sensors to pull out timing for poorly designed software. Remember the sensors a retarding the timing when they sense Knock(detonation) That means your engine is pinging for a bit each time you accrellerate. And what if the knock sensor goes bad??
>>
>>Good advice.
>>I bought a new tankful today, this time of Union 76 Premium grade, which for here is 91 octane. I took it into the hills for about a 150 mi drive today. The pinging is getting better, but still slightly there as I first get onto some heavy throttle at RPMs bellow 3,000 or so. We'll see if things continue to improve as I burn up this tank of 76 gas. I have had a bad tank of Chevron 91 other times as well in another car. If it doesn't go all the way away, I may have to put in a can of octane boost since I have a track day Thursday at Thunderhill in CA, so will have no time to get my ECU checked out by then.

No need to get octane boost for your track day. Thunderhill sells high octane at the track (100). See you at Thunderhill on Thursday.

 

I'm ordering new plugs and wires later today that I feel might make a difference, for those of us with a pulley & ECU mod. I should know soon enough...

 

what's this thunderhilll event you guys are talking about?

bbt4
(same pulley party)

 

>>what's this thunderhilll event you guys are talking about?
>>
>>bbt4
>>(same pulley party)

MINI of Mt. View is holding an event at Thunderhill Racetrack in Willows, CA, on Thursday. At last count, there will be about 50 MINI's and at least 8 Certified Porsche instructors on hand for instruction. I am told there will be plenty of individual track time, an in car camcorder, and a photographer on-site as well. It is $300 for the day. It should be a great day, although I am not looking forward to a three hour drive to get there and probably temps at least in the 90's.

Thunderhill also offers a "Street School", which I may attend later this year. Also, at the end of the year, Driving Concepts will also have a school at Laguna Seca. This MINI event to me is just right to start, no "big iron" (and hopefully no big ego's), around to be intimidated of. I can't wait to see how all the mods have come together for this (Madness intake, pulley, EVOTECH, H Sports, and Madness swaybar).
Cheers!

 

WOW! $300!!!
i'll wait for the Laguna Seca class instead.
btw, do you know the price of the Laguna Seca class?

thanks goshark,

 

>>WOW! $300!!!
>>i'll wait for the Laguna Seca class instead.
>>btw, do you know the price of the Laguna Seca class?
>>
>>thanks goshark,
>>
If you think $300 is a lot, the Laguna Seca class is $450. Here is the link to Driving Concepts. The class is on New Year's Eve.

 

I have seen two different cars now with pinging after the EVOTech upgrade. I have remapped one, and the other is your car (which we have discussed).

I don't think the "screeching" sound is the belt. I have done over 170 of these and have NEVER had a problem with the stock belt (and have had a problem with the NAPA belt - which is why I don't use it). I would bet it is the supercharger whine through the intake (a serious sound if you have the Alta or Madness with the holes in the partition). Is the sound something new?

BlueThunder - never been to Colorado in the summer eh? The summer is quite serious - we have had 90+ days for the last three weeks (some in the 98F range). As I said, I've had two cars ping, both in California, out of the 43 I did there. I have several cars with many thousands of miles on them using 91 octane with no problems. I'm not worried about a "piston party" after the pulley party - nice try though . The EVOTech, even though it is no longer the top dog for horsepower, is a very well designed system. Hundreds of hours of dyno testing went into it, and EVOTech has quite a reputation for excellent products in the industry - it ain't no Mickey Mouse brand. We were able to remap the other car successfully to avoid detonation, and I'm certain that if LetsMotor0_0 still has an issue after switching gas and trying a colder range plug, we will be able to remap his successfully as well.

Let me know if anyone has any questions at all - I always work with folks to make sure everything is right.

Hope that helps!

Randy
720-841-1002

 

>>I have seen two different cars now with pinging after the EVOTech upgrade. I have remapped one, and the other is your car (which we have discussed).
>>
>>I don't think the "screeching" sound is the belt. I have done over 170 of these and have NEVER had a problem with the stock belt (and have had a problem with the NAPA belt - which is why I don't use it). I would bet it is the supercharger whine through the intake (a serious sound if you have the Alta or Madness with the holes in the partition). Is the sound something new?
>>
>>BlueThunder - never been to Colorado in the summer eh? The summer is quite serious - we have had 90+ days for the last three weeks (some in the 98F range). As I said, I've had two cars ping, both in California, out of the 43 I did there. I have several cars with many thousands of miles on them using 91 octane with no problems. I'm not worried about a "piston party" after the pulley party - nice try though . The EVOTech, even though it is no longer the top dog for horsepower, is a very well designed system. Hundreds of hours of dyno testing went into it, and EVOTech has quite a reputation for excellent products in the industry - it ain't no Mickey Mouse brand. We were able to remap the other car successfully to avoid detonation, and I'm certain that if LetsMotor0_0 still has an issue after switching gas and trying a colder range plug, we will be able to remap his successfully as well.
>>
>>Let me know if anyone has any questions at all - I always work with folks to make sure everything is right.
>>
>>Hope that helps!
>>
>>Randy
>>720-841-1002

Randy,
I believe that you are correct the sound being a "normal" supercharger sound. I had a friend take a test drive on Friday and he told me "people spend a lot of money on their cars to get that sound." I am just a little nervous with my track day coming up this week that everything is okay and ready to go. I do have the Madness Intake with the partition mod.. The sound is subtle enough that I don't hear it unless the windows are rolled down. And then, only under hard acceleration between 3k to 4k RPM. I still need to get my catback decision made.

 

Maybe you should try 93 octane from BP-Amoco or better yet, Sunoco if you have it in your area. ChevronTexaco is mostly Iraqi oil anyways.

 

>>Maybe you should try 93 octane from BP-Amoco or better yet, Sunoco if you have it in your area. ChevronTexaco is mostly Iraqi oil anyways.

There's nothing better than 91 octane pump gas here in the SF Bay Area of Northern California, otherwise I most certainly would.

 

Just came back from the track at Thunderhill where I found happiness in 100 Octane! No more pinging! :smile: (Neither colder range spark plugs nor octane booster helped)

Now it looks llike I'll just have to look into getting the timing retarded a bit.

I still don't know why I had no pinging for a month of driving after getting the Evotech ECU and pulley though. Anybody have any ideas?

_________________
'03 MCS, EB/B, pkgs#1,2,3, Nav, H/K, PDC, Anthracite w/blk leather, Alta pulley, Evotech ECU, Anthracite SSR Comps