Ok guys, first off, I have been searching. And I will continue to search, but I am posting this to get personal opinions. If you guys are tired of sway bar threads and are just going to tell me to search, go away. It still have several "searched" thread up and am reading through them.

I recently picked up my MCS, hence my neutral status. One of the draw backs I noticed was the body roll. Its just too much for me. However, I feel that the spring/damping rates to be quite nice. They feel quite agressive, yet are still soft enough to be comfortable for daily driving. The ONLY suspension mods I plan to do are: swaybar/s, front camber plates, and M7 USS (I already have M7 FSTB for anti-shrooms); in that order.

In my opinion the stock rear camber is good at ~ -1.5 degrees, I'd like to get the front up to ~ -2 degrees which I hear is about the max for stock suspension...but camber plates wont be coming for a while.

On to swaybars. I'm looking for the "best" bar. Squeaking is definitly something that will not be acceptable, so cross the squeakers off. Ease of install isn't top priority to me, I've done sway bar installs before, as well as a million other things and I am not concerned. Weight is something I consider, so the H-sport comp is atractive in that way. Also needing to "trim" parts of the car are not the first thing I want to do. My driving will be a lot of street driving, but I will autox the car, and do plan to track it as well (Seca, Buttonwillow are only 2 hrs from me). I also tracked/autox'd the S2000 on several occasions, my driving experience is good but I wouldn't put myself in race class yet. I typically run as an HPDE 3 driver at SCCA events. Also coming from an S2000 with 500lb front springs and 550lb rear , oversteer is no stranger, neither is snap oversteer. However, the Mini and the S2k drive entirely differently and it'll take me an Autox or two to learn the Mini.

19mm vs 22mm vs H-sport comp?

What is "too much" for somebody such as myself. Keep in mind I don't want a overly tail happy Mini as you don't have the same control as you do in a RWD car. I also don't need a bar that is safe for the wife as I'm only 22 and am not married

Please don't just put: H&R 19mm its awesome, or H-Sport 25.5mm I love Hotchkis...give me some reasons.

Thanks for the help guys

Eric

 

Stock MC with stock conti tires ..... hard corners definitely pushed to the outside front tire. Squeal was there .... at that corner.

Fast forward to new 16 inch R90 wheels, new Kuhmo ECSTA AST tires, and new H&R 19mm bar on the stiffest hole. No more squeal. No more push. The turns are flat and the MINI seems to turn more from the center of the car. The impregnated H&R bushings are perfectly quiet.

I installed the bar in my garage working by myself in 1 hour and 15 minutes total (including up and down off 4 jack stands). MCS is a little more difficult install and because of this I would advise you to get a helper to assist in getting the subframe back into place.

The H&R rear bar is my favorite mod. It is 100% driveable every day.

 

I have the H-Sport 19mm in the rear and the 27mm in the front. I am really pleased with the feel of the car. I just need to get some coilovers and I will be happy.
I have them both on full stiff and find the ride to be perfectly fine unless I am on roads that would shake an old station wagon to nuts and bolts.
I would also suggest for you to look into the Webb Motorsports Extreme bar. search through some threads and give Randy a call himself.
http://store.webbmotorsports.com/ind...14037e77258747

http://store.webbmotorsports.com/ind...roducts_id=138

He does have his phone number listed all over this forum as well, that is the quickest way to contact him.

 

The first thing I did to mine was to add the M7 FSTB, followed immediately (did a test run for feel) by the USS (then another test run) and then the H-Sport 19mm first on medium, then full-stiff after a test run.

Drove it like that for several months before installing the TSW springs which I highly recommend as a wonderful $200 mod.

That said, my opinion after driving the car aggressively for some time now is that nobody with any real talent should need more rear bar than this.

I have yet to install camber plates, and after doing so I anticipate having to soften up the rear bar. At it stands, the car is very balanced. I can fling it into a turn hot and the tail will rotate just enough to be too much, at which point I can compensate by adding throttle causing the front tires to slip.

This is a perfect balance, because I can really get the car to rotate into a turn, and prevent a spin by adding gobs of throttle. No, I wouldn't say the car is overly tail-happy. Maybe for an inexperienced driver or one who doesn't know what is coming, but for you and me, definately not. Would it be if I used a stiffer bar? I believe so, especially once I add the camber plates.

Oh and also, I have not yet installed the adjustable rear-arms so I'm running more negative camber in the rear than normal which obviously helps to curb oversteer. I'm running the stock run-flats as well on 18" JCW wheels.

I think the 19" H-Sport bar will suit you just fine. I have no squeaks yet and the bushings come with zerk fittings anyway. The three-hole adjustability gives one more hole of adjustment than the H&R which I think is nice.. more tuneable=better in my eyes.

Yes, it will snap-oversteer on throttle-lift mid-corner, but it is not really that scary. If it were too much, you could always back it down.

 

H&R Cause I love the company......

(HAHAHAHAHA Just Kidding)

 

Don't know if this will help or not...I'm not educated like some here on suspension mods...My 22mm Alta bar does not squeak...never has. It's a common complaint about the Alta bar, but one I've never experienced. I've got the Alta set on the middle setting and I have experienced oversteer in an aggressive, high speed turn. Since then, I have been running KW coils and have not experienced any oversteer...maybe at times a bit of understeer. Once I get my camber plates installed, I expect that I'll go back down to the softest setting on the Alta 22. Like what was mentioned above, look into the Webb bar. If money isn't too important for this mod, give it a try as it is "infinitely" adjustable. To add, I have rear adjustable lower control arms. The front sway bar, with no other mods...as I understand it...neutralizes the effect of the rear sway bar when done in conjunction. This all changes though when you lower the car and run stiffer springs. If I were to do it all over again, I'd do the coilovers first, then the camber plates, then decide if I needed the rear bar/what size bar I needed. BTW, my type of driving includes street/canyon driving and some autocross type driving with a local drivers ed company.

 

Thanks for the replies guys. And Chile Red...thanks for the laugh :D I think I'll probably just do a 19mm H-Sport to start. Then the camber plates. I like the stock springs/shocks so I'll probably leave those alone. I may look into springs one day, but in reality its nice not scraping everywhere now, and I like the stock rates.

If the 19mm isn't enough for me, I'll sell it and bump up to the 25.5 but from the sounds of it the 19mm will still suit me perfectly, and will probably be more then enough once I dial in front camber. If it becomes a little too much, I'll add the front bar.

Thanks again.

Any opinions on tires I had Hankook RS2's on the S2k. I'm thinking of stepping it up a knotch and going with either Bridgestone RE01R's or Dunlop Sport Z1's in 215/45/17 for the Mini

 

If you did your searching (OMGOSH GO SEARCH ) I think the consensus is that the 19mm swaybar is the way to go, over a 22mm – ESPECIALLY if you'll be doing camber plates, since they complement each other resulting in a neutral-handling car.

So what do I have? A 22mm Alta! First mod I bought and was of the mindset that "more = better." I'm still running the bar, however, and it's perfectly acceptable. Keep it on the softest, and the car rotates nicely. A 22mm won't be "too much," but (at least in my case) it isn't adjustable because I'm on the softest setting and still trying to dial back the rear / oversteer (via tire pressures or the like).

There should be info on non-squeaking bars out there. It has to do with teflon-coated bushings or something. My Alta began squeaking like a **** recently. Need to re-grease come spring. It was quiet for almost a year / 20k-ish miles, so I'm not complaining. Not a big aggravation.

Your plans sound perfect, BTW. Rear sway and camber plates would be perfect for a lot of us, if we didn't have that mod itch.

 

Yeah, I knew 19mm was the general consensus. But I wasn't sure if people were just being panzies I should run and hide now. But yeah, the S2000, especially with the stiff spring (which were from the previous owner...I was eventually going to switch to Koni's and Tein S-tech) that car REALLY would want to oversteer. However, I KNEW the limit, I knew WHEN it was about to start coming out and would be able to keep it right there. It really was no problem for me. Of course I did spin several times at autox's or tricky corners at tracks, typical cause was late breaking and thus too much weight on the front when starting turn in. But yeah...there is a reason so many S2k's found there final homes around telephone poles.

It basically goes "OMG this car grips AMAZINGLY, Wow......oh no! oh ****! smack" before they even had an idea it was coming. Anyway, coming from a car like that. I was worried that perhaps my perception of oversteer vs. average Mini driver might be quite different. Though it may be, I still think I'll try 19mm and camber plates. If that doesn't get me what i want I can always change it.

Does doing the rear bar alone though make a big difference in body roll? And I definitly do have a mod bug, I always have. But it tends to "ruin" my cars and thus, this one is staying as stock as I can possibly let it.

M7 Strut Bar - Done
DICE iPod harness - Done
Auto-Up window
H-Sport 19mm Rear Swaybar
Armrest
Camber Plates
TSW Engine Damper
M7 Under Strut System
B&M Short throw shifter
M7 Ram Air Hood Scoop
M7 Air Plate Diverter
Alta V2 Intercooler Air Diverter + Sprayer
JCW Intake
M7 Grills
M7 Oil Catch Can
M7 Aerogel Heatshield
Miltek Exhaust
Dinan Boost Kit + Stage V software

Thats everything I want in order...please stop me :LOL:

 

I still say you should check out the Webb bar...never a need to switch back or forth...

 

I have the H-Sport Comp and love it.
-It is 3-way adjustable
-Simple install, no trimming or anything
-Hollow bar = weight savings
-I love super stiff suspension, so oversteer is always welcome!

With my current setup, the car is very flat through turns. It just ducks and goes.

 

I spend hours searching threads for info,but I'm glad you spoke right up!There are lots of MINI owners who always are quick to help!Different bars for different cars!My wife has a different rear bar than mine on her '05 S Cabrio,and both cars handle very well!And I like your wish list,it shows enthusiasm,and a long term relationship with your car and MINI owners.Have Fun!

 

Dang it...you guys have me guessing again ohh well. At least I have some time before I actually buy the bar. Time to think, keep driving the car as it is, and really decide how much more oversteer I want. I'll probably be calling Randy at Webb sometime this week to.

Thanks again guys,

Leaving the S2k community was a little bit of a concern because the people over there are really very friendly. I'm glad the Mini community is just as helpful

 

coming from a S2K you should be no stranger to oversteer,

if its an MC, then i'd recommend any 19mm bar, or even a used S bar

for a MCS, 22mm alta, madness, or 25mm H-Sport competition bars are all good choices

from personal perspective, on the softest setting on the Competition bar, its close to stock, still a bit of understeer, very very safe on the street, even if you lift off mid corner you still cannot lose the rear end, unless of course you are doing something you shouldn't

middle setting, which is what i run 90% of the time, has a mild oversteer stance, i actually manage to do a 180 on the street once because i was not used to it (first time i changed the setting)! but its easy breezy for me to control it now, i actually find i got a bit too much understeer now with the new coilovers

stiff setting is... stiff, will depend on your suspension setup as well, it almost snaps, great for very tight autox, not very safe on the street

what im trying to get at? why the MCS should go for the bigger bar is simple, if you get the 19mm bar, you increase the bar thickness by... 1 mm... (stock MCS comes with 18mm) so how much are you really changing is up for debate

there's about 10 billion opinions on this subject, personally seeing you come from a S2K RWD chassis, and shouldn't be afraid of a little tail wag, then why go for a mild upgrade?

 

Because "the mild upgrade" will result in the better handling car? A MINI with any size rear sway bar won't have the same oversteer characteristics as the S2000, so this shouldn't be a question of "getting as much oversteer as an S2000." We're dealing most with lift oversteer, and it's pretty ******-ific in 90% of street situations. (A street situation being you going around a corner and having to suddenly slow down for your neighbor's dog.)

And percentages of "stiffer than stock" can be found for most of the aftermarket bars, so there's nothing to debate re: how much a 19mm increases stiffness, and how much stiffer a 22mm is on its softest setting (a lot, and even more, respectively).

Our set-ups are different, of course, but if I lift off mid-corner, driving at even, say, 6 or 7/10ths, I can definitely expect some snap oversteer with my 22mm at its softest setting. This has created plenty of "oh #%$%" moments, some intentional, others not.

As far as understeer, you can understeer anything with any size rear bar given (bad enough) driving.

My local autox are on smaller lots and tighter, slower courses. When I finally made it to an event at an airstrip, I wasn't able to get anywhere near the limit because the car was coming around too quickly in transitionals. I've since changed shocks and now have adjustability on that end, but I've come to the conclusion that a 22mm rear bar is too much, ESPECIALLY if you're adding camber up front.

The Webb bar sounds great, if you want to spend an outrageous amount of money.

 

I run the Hankooks on my MINI. They are brilliant. Also ran Eagle F1s, they were very good too. However, i cannot give a great review on any of my tyres as my differential is acting up and not really letting me experience them properly. I've been hearing some rave reviews on the RE01R's, so i'd probably either go for those or the Falken Azenis RT-615s. Don't really know anything about the Direzzas.

 

Stock MCS bar is 17mm. You can get some very good info on the different sizes at the Alta site here , just click on the charts tab.

Softest setting on either the 22 or 25.5 are WAY stiffer than stock.

Just remember that to correct oversteer in a FWD car is a bit more difficult.

 

oversteer in a FWD car? don't lift and add gas (gently), put the weight back to the rear and you are back in line, i am not sure what you mean by that

if you are able to have some 'oh s**t' moments on the streets with a 19mm bar, then i think you are just driving much faster than you should on public highways

track or street, i have a competition sway bar 25mm H-sport, stock suspension, eibach springs with koni shocks, or now with H&R coilovers, i have only once, had it let go on the street, never ever had any sweaty or swearing moments when i feel the car'd slide out of control since that time...

different people, different opinions, if i can only do one mod on this car, i'd still do the 25mm bar

 

I have a the Alta 22mm on my 05 MCS set on the softest setting. It made a big difference from the stock Sport Suspsension+ bar that came with my car. The car turns a lot faster. It also meant I needed to spend some time to learn to drive it safely in all road conditions. This winter's snow (more than average for my area) has let me learn that and I feel confident enough to maybe move up to the medium setting now.

For all intents an purposes, the softest setting on the 22mm is more than adequate for normal "spirited" street and highway driving. Good tires would be a requirement. However, I would probably move up to the medium setting if I plan on autocrossing or tracking my car as well as doing any additional suspension adjustments.

 

Yes, as long as you have enough power available the oversteer is not too difficult to correct provided you have the ***** to floor the gas when you are about to spin out. It is very counter-intuitive for someone that is accustomed to driving a RWD car. Trust me, I spent the last two years with a 2006 BMW 330i as my daily driver, and the '06 JCW as a now-and-then. It too me FOREVER to get the feeling for the JCW, and how to really drive it. But yes, oversteer is fixed by adding throttle.


I think it's safe to guess that at least 60% of all enthusiasts that bolt go-faster mods onto their vehicles drive in such a manner at times. Personally, I consider myself a rather safe driver. I do, however, "drive much faster than I should on public highways" on a regular basis.

So do probably 90% of all people who drive, for that matter. I'd like to know that if I were going a little too fast for a turn that was sharper than anticipated and had to slow suddenly, that my car would not spin out. Personally, I believe it is safer to have a fast driver in a well-tuned vehicle than a slower driver in a car that would spin in a heartbeat if conditions were just right (or wrong as the case may be).

Funny however, that on the first day we got that Mini, my wife was driving it home and I followed behind in the 330. We were on a 55mph 4-lane highway with no divider. She went to change lanes to dodge an idiot driver that cut in front of her to make a right turn. He was moving much too slow and she had to dive left and brake hard at the same time. We were on a section of road that is a relatively hard left-hand sweeper (hard for a 55mph public highway).

I watched the whole thing go down. She was not driving exceptionally fast ... maybe 65mph ... and when she was forced to increase her turn radius sharply and apply the brakes the tail swung out quite a bit. My heart jumped and I thought she was toast. Fortunately she's a skilled driver and reigned it in smartly, but if her car was equipped with a 25mm bar I'm sure that she would have spun.

You can never predict what the circumstances surrounding your drive will be when on a public highway. Setting your car up in such a manner is more dangerous than me driving "much too fast." Believe me.

 

I have an 05' MC with H-sport springs, H-sport rear lower control arms, M7 FSTB, Alta 22mm adj RSB and Konig Feather wheels with Azenis RT615's. The RSB was my first mod and it made a huge difference. I don't have the time to go into a lengthy opinion so here is my $.02. The more adjustment the bar has the better (when your modifing the suspension). I like to control the tail while I add modifications to the suspension. Some of us cannot afford coilovers (and a $200 RSB) is alot more afordable and does alot (mabey just as much) for the handling. I run my bar at the middle setting all of the time and have had no problems. My drive style is agressive and I AutoX. BTW welcome to the MINI community!!

 

ill give you THAT much

 

My experience:
On the street, I can't say that I was bothered by the understeer.
At Buttonwillow, however, I was plowing like a sharecropper.
Enter 22mm on full soft
Laguna Seca - Ah, it's nice to use the rear tires, too.

I'm generally a sissy, but drive miatas, so I'm used to oversteer.
If you don't mind the transaction costs (buying and selling, install x2), starting with a 19 is good. In fact, it would probably be enough in at least one of the configurations.
I got a good deal on the 22 and have been happy with it.
Note that the bigger bars get REALLY CLOSE to touching the body near the bends, so if you go 25 hollow, you're more likely to have to trim than with a smaller bar.
FWIW, YMMV, etc.

 

Thanks for all the input guys, I swear I'm thinking about this sway bar way too often. My only concern regarding a 22/25.5 bar is how twitchy it may become after the camber plates. Because I do plan on doing track events, high speed stability is a concern, and it sounds like the 22/25.5 may be a little much for that when camber plates are also installed. This really is a very torn topic, with opinions very strong on either side of the fence. And both with good reason, I think I need to go to an AutoX and ride in different Mini's with different bars to try to feel the difference that way.

 

If you are getting camber plates I wouldn't go bigger than the 22mm.....even that may be just a bit too stiff.