Took MINI for a nice ride this evening, found lots of 15 to 30 mph curves to enjoy. With a bit over 3300 miles, I haven't experimented yet w/ no DSC, so I turned it off and finished up my drive in a well-known area w/ good visibility. I hit a couple of good turns at 60 mph plus, and man- it's a different car! I've got 16" run-flats, and I'm used to getting them to chirp and hop when I burn through a tight radius, but suddenly, I had a four wheel drift in the middle of a curve I would normally be grinning through. Suddenly, it was time to get it right or swap ends. I definitely did NOT feel as safe in the car. I've heard some say that they keep their DSC off, but NO WAY could I take curves at the speeds I get w/ it on. I can't see how my Cooper would be as fun w/ the DSC off. I'd have to adopt a whole different way of driving (there's no track around here to offer a high performance driving course) since I'd constantly be correcting slides (which I'm good at) instead of pulling G's (I LOVE pulling G's!!!). Please share your experiences with curves and the DSC: on or off; more/ less fun in which mode; opinions, stories, etc. Should make for an interesting thread.

 

I turned my DCS off the other day to experiment with smoking the tires. It does feel less safe, but also more fun! A four wheel drift (controlled) is loads of fun!

 

The DSC is the first thing that goes OFF when I get in my MCS .

To think a computer chip will determine your next thought just blows me away.

Give it up.

 

>>The DSC is the first thing that goes OFF when I get in my MCS .
>>
>>To think a computer chip will determine your next thought just blows me away.
>>
>>Give it up.
>>
I see your point, but the thought doesn't bother me- it's the same technology that will decide whether the air bags deploy safely. Computers are an integral part of current day high speed driving safety. I'm just interested in the difference in raw cornering speed and traction. It doesn't seem possible to go as fast in a front wheel drive car if you're continually minding the loss of traction which the DSC prevents. 4 wheel drifts are fun, but they don't give the same sense of being painted to the road that I get when I'm accelerating up to 60 through a turn posted at 25 mph.

 

I'm really confused by your DSC-off experience...

Are these roads you've been on before with DSC-on and going quick???

I don't understand how DSC being OFF slows you down. I don't understand it at all. When DSC kicks in and takes control, it does so while slowing down the car as it corrects under/oversteering/drifting. If you are drifting and DSC takes over, you WILL be slow when it's finally done and traction is regained pulling out the turn. If you are drifting the same place but DSC is OFF and you decide to keep the throttle steady and ride it through, you will be flying out the turn in comparison.

When dsc is off... my car doesn't handle any worse, that just doesn't make any sense. The suspension is still the same and all. The car corners just as well, wheelspin and rough roads will just activate it and make sure the car can stay in control. If your dsc is off, you can be very fast if you are ready to correct slides effectively.

 

Just think of it this way, with DSC off, you get to go faster!!!

 

On our recent track day at the Texas World Speedway I exterimented with DSC on or off in the afternoon, after I had gotten used to the car, track, line, etc...
I have to say I am still a novice at track driving, it was my first day.
I would basically conclude that DSC saved my a$$ once where I would have spun out without it. It did so by applying the brake sharply and very briefly at the front right corner, to swing the car back in line. Otherwise for the testing I was driving in a non-ideal manner to see when DSC would kick in. Most of the time it kicked in (yellow light on), just after I had started to take corrective measures to avoid losing it. In other words, it kicks in very late. When I was driving in an optimal way (for me, and keeping up with much more powerful cars), optimal line, correct type of breaking, the DSC did not kick in at all, never.
So, based on this I would say on a track I can get around as fast with DSC on as with DSC off.
My 2c.

 

No offense MG, but you post seems to say that if you are having trouble driving at speed, DSC will help you drive faster, because it will keep you from spinning out... Well, ya, but if you know how to handle a car at speed, and how to toss it around without losing control, DSC will ONLY slow you down... It's really a matter of how comfortable you are with your MINI. Personally, it depends on the driving conditions... If I'm in the mood for some 'fun', I do turn it off... but if the roads are not bone dry, or i'm not looking to toss my MINI around, then it stays on.

Rocketboy_X

 

I think the DCS should always be off, unless you turn it on, which is the direct opposite of the way they designed it. It truly does have a better feel doesn't it when it's off?

 

Rocketboy-X and Hank – I think both of you have said it. Why do you need the car to think for you if “YOUR” doing the driving.

DSC may be one of those nice features if you want an SUV kind of add-on. I want a car that is a car, not a program on the screen.

 

If my DCS had been "off" last week, I probably would have slammed into 2-3 cars when I made a 90 degree turn at 50 mph to avoid an idiot that decided to make a sudden bonehead move.
I am a fan of "pure" driving, but I think in everyday driving it is unwise not to use every tool available to avoid an unexpected situation.




Gary
02 MCS dkgy/blk, 2003 Jetta TDI, 2000 Sonoma GT, 2000 Honda CBR1100 XX

 

....and Sonoma has hit the point directly on the head. The DSC is a safety feature for those unexpected driving moments where vehicle composure is of utmost importance over quick track times.
MINI putting the DSC toggle in place is exactly for those drivers with experience enough to know precisely how the vehicle will react at and beyond "the limit" [of adhesion].
Honestly, the vast majority of drivers unfortunately do not have qualifiable high-speed drivers' training, and it is in this context that I feel DSC is a very valuable safetly tool in keeping MINI's and their drivers in one piece!

Regards,
Ryan

 

>>The DSC is the first thing that goes OFF when I get in my MCS .

 

>>I don't even have DSC!
>>

 

>>No offense MG, but you post seems to say that if you are having trouble driving at speed, DSC will help you drive faster, because it will keep you from spinning out... Well, ya, but if you know how to handle a car at speed, and how to toss it around without losing control, DSC will ONLY slow you down... It's really a matter of how comfortable you are with your MINI. Personally, it depends on the driving conditions... If I'm in the mood for some 'fun', I do turn it off... but if the roads are not bone dry, or i'm not looking to toss my MINI around, then it stays on.
>>
>>Rocketboy_X

I think you may have misunderstood me Rocketboy_X,
I did not mean to say that DSC will help you drive faster. I meant to say that turning DSC off will not necessarily allow you to drive faster, because (and this may apply to my driving style alone?) when I drove as well as I could (and that may not be optimal from the perspective of an experienced racer), DSC never kicked in, so having DSC on did not slow me down. It was only when I drove less well than my best capabilities (when I drove sloppily), did DSC kick in. Even then, turning off DSC would not allow me to go faster, because from that driving style I obtaine dbetter speed increases by trying to drive a better line and do the braking and turn-in in a better way. Having found that, I will leave DSC on when on track, because I think it does not slow me down, but may save my hiny if I really mess up.
As I had posted before in another thread, I was not too happy with DSC / AST, when e.g. trying to pull into a lane of dense, fast moving traffic from a side street, almost right corner. Especially if the street is rough, then the inner wheel may spin and the system will either apply the right front brake or cut power a bit to avoid wheel spin. The net result is you big down just as you are trying to blend into the fast moving traffic stream. However, as some have pointed out, that is actually the traction control system and not DSC that will do this.

When you turn off DSC, is traction control turned off at the same time?

On cars that do not have DSC, can you turn off traction control?

Cheers,
Markus

 

DSC and ACT both operate off the same switch.For track driving they need to be off.Some owners would prefer them off on the street.I prefer them on.Although the braking from the DSC does slow you down,it has saved my butt when I'm driving over my head.When you go around a corner and hit a patch of gravel or water it's a life saver.

 

>>I think you may have misunderstood me Rocketboy_X,
>>I did not mean to say that DSC will help you drive faster. I meant to say that turning DSC off will not necessarily allow you to drive faster

Of course DSC off will not allow you to somehow 'drive' faster, but it will help you off the line, and it will allow you to swing your car around more than with DSC on, and if you know how to drive like that, it will slow you down because every time it kicks in, you will lose power (that's the whole point...). I've pulled some rather fast turns with DSC on and off, but with it off, it allows me that little bit more play room than with DSC on... But like I said, if it's out of your skill range (no offense if it is, I'm not trying to say that I aced driving school (hell, never even took it, but I learn what my MINI can do tiny babysteps at a time... and I always 'push' it in the same places so that way I know how the turn swings, where the potholes are, how the road slopes, etc...)) then having DSC off will probally hinder you.

And isn't DSC the same as traction control? DSC is just the fancy name for the setup...

(other side notes)
I fully agree with MINI that DSC should be on by default. It's just safer that way for the average driver and the average road conditions...

(and another side note)
I remember a shoot-out type test (more of an expirment really) between a front wheel drive car (can't remember which one), an all-wheel drive Impreza, and a rear wheel drive BMW, and on the first test track they went on, when they remember to turn of DSC on the BMW, they posted a noticable time difference.. (for the better)...


Rocketboy_X

 

MG-BGT: That is something I have noticed personally as well. If I am going fast and smooth (trying to hold all tire contact firm on the ground in the line that i want the entire time as lon gas i can), DSC won't bother me because it knows there is no trouble. It's something you will notice once you start driving very fast on roads you get familiar with especially.

 

>>>>No offense MG, but you post seems to say that if you are having trouble driving at speed, DSC will help you drive faster, because it will keep you from spinning out... Well, ya, but if you know how to handle a car at speed, and how to toss it around without losing control, DSC will ONLY slow you down... It's really a matter of how comfortable you are with your MINI. Personally, it depends on the driving conditions... If I'm in the mood for some 'fun', I do turn it off... but if the roads are not bone dry, or i'm not looking to toss my MINI around, then it stays on.
>>>>
>>I think you may have misunderstood me Rocketboy_X,
>>I did not mean to say that DSC will help you drive faster. I meant to say that turning DSC off will not necessarily allow you to drive faster, because (and this may apply to my driving style alone?) when I drove as well as I could (and that may not be optimal from the perspective of an experienced racer), DSC never kicked in, so having DSC on did not slow me down. It was only when I drove less well than my best capabilities (when I drove sloppily), did DSC kick in. Even then, turning off DSC would not allow me to go faster, because from that driving style I obtaine dbetter speed increases by trying to drive a better line and do the braking and turn-in in a better way. Having found that, I will leave DSC on when on track, because I think it does not slow me down, but may save my hiny if I really mess up.
>>As I had posted before in another thread, I was not too happy with DSC / AST, when e.g. trying to pull into a lane of dense, fast moving traffic from a side street, almost right corner. Especially if the street is rough, then the inner wheel may spin and the system will either apply the right front brake or cut power a bit to avoid wheel spin. The net result is you big down just as you are trying to blend into the fast moving traffic stream. However, as some have pointed out, that is actually the traction control system and not DSC that will do this.
>>
>>When you turn off DSC, is traction control turned off at the same time?
>>
>>On cars that do not have DSC, can you turn off traction control?
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Markus

Markus, nice to hear from someone w/ track experience. Your post is exactly what I had in mind when I started this thread. I'd classify myself as a good driver, but not performance trained. Like you, I haven't noticed my DSC coming on in the curves, though having the indicator out of the line of sight instead of at the tach is a design flaw-who's looking at their speedo during any real excitement, for Pete's sake?. I certainly haven't FELT it kick in to spoil the fun. I have felt the often-mentioned slow down on 90 degree turns w/ wet pavement where I'm intentionally trying to kick the end out and the DSC doesn't want to let me, but that's not what I'm talking about. When I enter a curve at 45 and come out at 60 or 70 (fast in, fast out) I've never felt it do this, which either means that at high speeds it's more subtle than some believe, or I must be handling the line properly. I do toss the car about a great deal and get the tires loose frequently, but if I hadn't had the experience of switching it off and almost swapping ends in a turn which I normally take at 60+ and get a bit of tire chirp, then I wouldn't have been aware of any difference. It seems that it prevents that initial loss of tire adhesion and then quickly switches off, not necessarily a bad thing as one learns the limits of one's car and ability. What I'd REALLY like is to have the safety of the track to explore the limits of tire adhesion and 4 wheel drifting at higher speeds. Wish there was one in my area

 

Hey fms and Rocektboy_X

a few more thoughts and observations:

1st of all, DSC is not just fancy traction control, AFAIK, is is a completely separate feature that however also includes the traction control feature:

Traction control does two things: it may apply braking power to a wheel that is spinning because of applied power exceeding limited grip of that wheel, and it may reduce engine power to avoid spinning the wheel with too little grip. That's all AST does.

DSC on the other hand is designed to prevent a driver from losing control of the car. It is not designed to prevent wheel spin, but it is designed to prevent the car from spinning out, flipping over

 

an afterthought:

one difference between track and street, is that in a track I would guess that it is easier to find the optimal line, because you go round and round and round the same track. That way, I would think you can get top notch lap times without having the DSC kick in (see my above post).

On a street, especially if unfamiliar, I would expect to have a driving style (myself at least), that will be far more likely to have the DSC kick in when driving near the limit, so you could say the DSC may "slow you down" on the street. However, I would also consider it far more likely that DSC will save your a$$ under such conditions - driving near the limit on an unfamiliar road. In fact, I would say that for most people, the best DSC would be not to even drive anywhere near the limit under such conditions.

I have pretty much decided to keep DSC on (as it is by default), and I rarely switch it off for the fast 90 degree merge type of situation, and really what I need to switch off there is the AST, not DSC. For me (other than the 90 deg merge), if DSC becomes active, something is telling me:
Slow down buddy!

 

>>one difference between track and street, is that in a track I would guess that it is easier to find the optimal line, because you go round and round and round the same track. That way, I would think you can get top notch lap times without having the DSC kick in (see my above post).
>>
>>On a street, especially if unfamiliar, I would expect to have a driving style (myself at least), that will be far more likely to have the DSC kick in when driving near the limit, so you could say the DSC may "slow you down" on the street.

I think you pretty much summed up what we both were saying, as I can't speak for track driving, and it does put a damper on my fun on the street some times.. (but like i said above, I don't try anything 'stupid', I do my best to make sure I know what I'm going to be getting into before I do it)... and another factor is that you have a bit more playing area on a track.. it would be rather dangerous to use the whole road in order to get a good line..

Rocketboy_X
(and p.s. i just usually leave mine on... I don't go thru as much tire rubber that way..)

 

DSC or no DSC? That is the question. I'm on the waiting list but haven't confirmed by order for a MCS. Should I get the DSC or not? Seems like its a good safety feature and can still be turnoff to revert back to conventional control?

 

>>The DSC is the first thing that goes OFF when I get in my MCS .

 

As has been said in the various other threads discussing DSC (and there are lots, just search on the term), the problem is NOT DSC but rather traction control. On a DSC-equipped MCS, turning off DSC also turns off traction control.

In fact, DSC is quite helpful in the few instances where it really kicks in...i.e., when at speed and you are forced to take evasive action that might otherwise set your car out of balance. I've had it kick in once on the interstate when some bozo charged into my lane virtually beside me as we were both traveling over 90. I emergency swerved and I think that DSC helped keep my MINI fully under control. Very helpful.

On the other hand, the reduction of power I get 50% of the time while attempting to pull out into an intersection is the TRACTION CONTROL kicking in...and this is downright dangerous. I think that this is a particular problem with the MCS as the traction control is inappropriately calibrated for the amount of power and torque available at launch. It kicks in, cuts power, and we all complain. Hopefully BMW/MINI will release a new program for this system...and until then, I tend to turn off "DSC" for normal street driving...but I DEFINITELY keep it on for highway driving.

This is a a very complicated issue. It's lot more than the emotional reaction of "no damn computer is going to make decisions for me" kind of response that often is attached to this discussion. Real DSC can indeed save your bacon and when it's really needed, it CAN make a better "decision" than 99% of drivers except those very experienced and professionally trained. IMO.