Now this is what I am talking about, people with a sense of humor about this entire thing.

 

I have not driven an 04 JCW. But I never challenged your assertion there. But of course I have driven the other two in question... I already own the more difficult to find one, and stock MCSes are easy to get hands on to test drive.

So my challenge to your statement is far more than conjecture.

No need to be a complete ***, in reference to the "refined and smooth" comment. JCW numbers are rarely tested by publications, as you well know... although the availability of factory JCW now will probably change that. I can turn it around and ask you - do YOU have any published numbers that show the stock 05 MCS performs "just as well"? What is "just as well"? Let's go on to your third point.

This is where the breakdown is. Your concept of "just as well" is different than mine. To me, if you can FEEL the difference (I sure did), and if you can SEE the difference (is the JCW car significantly ahead at the end of the 1/4 mile?), then it isn't "just as well". That's why I called BS. It was a very reasonable challenge to a very unreasonable (IMO) statement.

 

<deleted>

 

Apparently, not everyone sees the humor in it

 

I missed the reference to the fish. Post edited. Sorry that I got too jumpy there.

 

It doesn't bother me that your opinion differs from mine. It doesn't even bother me that you are calling me a "complete ***". What bothers me is that I am now concerned that my butt dyno is incorrectly calibrated..........

After carefully reading your reply I can safely come to the conclusion that perhaps some people's butt dynos are apparently more sensitive or better calibrated than mine and frankly, I feel slighted that I cannot feel the difference of perhaps 0.2 to 0.4 seconds and perhaps 2 mph to the quarter mile.

However, I could tell the difference that a relatively no-cost change (gears) made.

It really doesn't matter. If you bought the JCW and enjoy it and think it was worth the added cost, that is all that matters. As for the originator of the thread, I would really try to find someone in your area who can let you drive an MCS outfitted both ways. Then you can make your own decision as to whether the additional outlay versus performance gains are worth it.

 

So can we summarize this yet another "JCW or not" thread in a few words? I think we can. How about:

"Either do, or don't"

It doesn't just come down which way is better, cheaper, etc. It also depends a lot on the individuals personal circumstances. A point that has also been beaten to death. My personal opinion is (and no, nobody asked me, but I will go out on a limb): for everyday, reliable, fun transportation JCW is good if you can afford it. That is the choice Little Egg and I made for our second Mini. If I was building a car for the track, than I would most likely go the other way. As a matter of fact I would try to find a used MCS and go that way. But right now I don't need a track car, so JCW it is.

 

Precisely. I'm not going to sit here and criticize someone for NOT going the JCW route. I completely understand the decision-making process that causes people to go with aftermarket solutions. I already own another car that is VERY modified with aftermarket stuff... and I love doing that. But sticking with OEM on my MINI as much as possible was always part of the plan.

That being said, I find that non-JCW owners are very quick to criticize the JCW products without taking into account that maybe, just maybe, those of us who bought it have different goals than they do. We don't need reminding of how much it cost... we already paid for it.

No regrets.

 

I didn't outright say you WERE a complete *** in every respect... but your comment about the "refined and smooth" was very "***-inine". We are all "asses" at one time or another... the trick is not to make it a habit, right?

The problem with most people's comparisons between the two is that they only tend to take low speeds into account. It's hard to completely wring the performance potential out and keep the car at legal speeds, especially if you don't make it to a highway. With the gear change, I would not be surprised if the stock 05 MCS does feel almost the same as the 05 JCW MCS in street traffic, since the low RPM range is going to be exercised a lot more, so the real benefits of the added JCW power are not easily realized.

I do appreciate your humor though... I guess it's time to find a "butt dyno calibration shop", huh?

Excellent point. However, it's still relevant to point out that performance gains are only part of the equation. Warranty issues and easy serviceability by any MINI dealer in the country (not just the one that did the install, assuming you get a different performance package offered by a dealer) also play a role in the decision factor. Perhaps those other "benefits" are irrelevant to you, but they should at least be considered by anyone who is in the market and trying to compare.

 

Actually, I do not recommend any mods (other than rims and tires). I would see if he could find a local 05 or 06 MCS that has lighter rims and tires and perhaps a rear sway bar and compare that to the JCW package.

A lot of people bandy about the Magnussen-Moss act as a cure-all for your aftermarket mod vs. dealer woes. Easier said than done.

The Act offers little to no protection unless you are willing to retain the service of a lawyer and take BMW to court. If you have any qualms at all about potentially being denied warranty service at your Dealer, go the JCW route.

 

Is a butt dyno anything like a Thigh Master?

 

This is too funny and I fear will be locked shortly. But, staying OT, I think Edge has hit the heart of the matter.

If the MINI is your means of transportation and you gotta get to work in the morning, or got to go somewhere, average Joe Smoe can't be bothered with whatever code is being thrown norworry about if vendor X's part work with vendor Y's part in harmony.

Some people NEED reliable transportation (i know, buy a toyota). All cars break down. If it breaks down, drop it off at the dealer, get a FREE rental and off you go.

Now how do you do that aftermarket? Is Alta or MiniMadness or whoever going to provide me with a place to drop it off to be fixed AND provide a free rental.

Doubtful.

And there is the crux of the matter. The major weakness is lack of a decent service network that acts like a factory backed car. If you can live without that, thats GREAT. If the car is your toy, your hobby, thats great. But, If you like the VAST majority of the public motoring masses, its very doubtful.

 

Thanks to every one for the lively debate!<img>

At least for me, paulsminis post says a lot to me. Yes, I could save a lot of money and mod an MCS, but the mods might not work well together (or they could work fine!). But there is always the question of having the right parts (like a PC and Windows).

It's like when you read the tuner shootout articles in the car magazines, and they show up with tons of mods that cost crazy money and the results are marginal at best or the car breaks during the test!

While I think that part of the charm of the Mini is all the stuff you can do to them (though I often doubt many of the aftermarkets HP gain claims, especially when they can't back them up on their website with dyno results), I probably wouldn't do much more than a 15% pulley, CAI, header/Exhaust and ECS mods anyway.

Which begs the question, MTH claims 227HP on a JCW just with a tuner file, how much money would it cost to get up to that figure with a MCS (bear in mind that I would pay labor to have parts installed)?

All being said, I think I am leaning toward the JCW 60/40%.

Anyone in the Raleigh area willing to let me drive their JCW or moded cars to get a better feel?

THX

 

Something else that doesn't get mentioned much is gas milage. The JCW is comparable to the S in mileage from everything I've read, but what about aftermarket? Even the MTH tuning file for the JCW? I am not going to commit, but I thought I saw somewhere that a comparison between the MTH tuned JCW and standard JCW was made with the standard one having better gas milage - but do not quote me as I cannot for the life of me remember where it was.

Why does a modder care about gas mileage? They very well may not, but most people do and it may be something that comes up as a consideration in the decision making process.

(For the record, it didn't really in mine, I just know the car will probably get little more than what few cosmetic/lighting/comfort mods I can afford/have time to do for the next 10 years - so the performance was done at the getgo...)

 

...if it matters, my stock 05 JCW had no problems following a WRX and a Type-R thru the down hill at LRP and making a very clean pass in this short straight. Not once, not twice, but a half dozen times thru out the day. They were also running R-compound tires. I was on whimpy Michellins. I had to be on their tails at the apex to make the pass a clean one.

Those fellows still think my car is on something...100 Octane and 40 degree temps didn't hurt.

I've averaged 26.8 mpg over 42,000 miles of combined city/highway. Track day averages, 24.1mpg

As far as MTH or other aftermarket chips are concerned...I worry about how these gain power. If they do so by leaning out the extreeeeeeeemly rich JCW software, I would hesitate for a track application. I personally prefer a little extra cooling from the fuel in that type of environment. If you're drving on the steet only...

 

What version JCW DME are you running? I had all sorts of problems with 42.1. The Dealer even warned me in advance about it........

BTW: I have a heavily modified car and my mileage (outside of the track) does not suffer one bit.

 

Whatever the latest version is, it's an 05 210hp JCW. 42,000 very trouble free miles - hard miles too.

I wouldn't say my mileage suffers during track events. It is lower, and points to the relative fuel richness in the JCW software.

 

Do you really think thats true. SInce the JCW already comes with its own SW, how is MTH getting another 17 HP from SW? Also Since, JCW sells 225 HP kits in UK and its through headers, I find it really doubtful ...

Ask for a complete dyno run on same day, same car, proving the claims

Or lets say this, If you could get 17 "free" HP for a couple of hundred bucks, wouldnt all the JCW owners be flocking over to it?

 

Good point, as I said, I often doubt the HP claims of many tuners without hard (dyno) evidence.

 

Its kind of funny, I think.

 

The two most likely ways are leaning out the a/f, and getting more rpms at redline, which would allow a higher ultimate hp figure. At what point in the rev range are those 17hp occurring?

Let's be careful about character assassination of our vendors, once that starts in a thread, it always seems to devolve into more name calling, etc.

Edit: The third possibility is that their program is modding the timing, but my impression (which might be wrong) is that they don't do alot a modding with the timing.

 

I believe they are leaning out the a/f mixture and adding headers. but as you questioned, at what rpm is this power available? Further, is this new hp at the expense of power somewhere else.

I've driven many of Honda's/Acura's products and they can indeed fly. But you have to drive these like you are angry. I'm quite happy with my JCW...I think it should have cost less...perhaps half and that's my only rub. But mine is a company car and the company paid for it - not my company either.

 

I've had the opportunity to attend a few dyno days at the local shop.

While many of the tuner packages are indeed often over-adverstised, the same can be said of the handful of JCWs I've seen dyno'd.

 

Probably true.

All I can say is that I wouldnt believe ANY vendors claims without extensive testing. Randy seems to do that.

 

All I said was Do you really think thats true.

I think that is a VALID question that needs to be backed up.

Anyone can claim anything they want. Caveat Emptor