Without really going stupid nuts, I've tried to get my 05 JCW even just a little sideways, I haven't been successful.
Without flipping the thing, where is the break loose point...or...do they have a loose point ?

I remember back in school, going to Slalom races (now Auto X), racing with a then friend . There was a lot of "original" Minis running on most weekends. At LEAST one would end up on its side or even top..! I surely don't want to do that, but I'd like to know where the break loose point is. I guess I need to find a dirt lot somewhere.

Mike

 

Um, they are designed not to do that. Between the FWD layout, the suspension geometry, and the DTC/ATC it’s not going to happen without suspension modifications, poor traction conditions, or intentionally doing something to unsettle the car. These cars are engineered to under steer. The front wheels will break loose first.

You may want to look into options like a drift school, car control clinic, or instructor lead HPDE if you want to learn about the car in a safe environment. Then you can find out first hand about throttle steer and other ways to work with the laws of physics.

 

Increase front camber, increase rear tire pressure, decrease rear toe in near zero, disable DSC, go fast, lift throttle on corner entry. Be prepared, it WILL oversteer.

 

1. The car gets (always) driven with the traction control...off.
2. The car has a larger than stock anti-sway bar in the back, full hard adjustment. Should...be a little "tail happy" !
3. I've been driving, racing cars a long...time. I know how to drive a car with understeer AND oversteer. Been there...MANY times. Ever raced an oval track, yea, I have.
4. Little to no understeer with 1-1/2° of negative camber in the front. 3/4° in the back.
5. You missed the comment about my slalom (Auto X) racing, way back, in the original note ?

Thanks

Mike

 

I also like a bit of tail wag for autocross.

I run -2.1 degrees of camber on all four corners.

On course I run more pressure out back, to reduce the contact patch - 38 front 45 rear seems to be my sweet spot.

On public roads, square tire pressures leave me with neutral handling, so I've no lift throttle surprises to catch me out.

Some folks go low, to get a similar effect, but to me that just makes the back end feel slow and sloppy.

Just FYI, here are the corner weights on my car...

LF 891 RF 884
LR 502 RR 502

Cheers,

Charlie

 

Yes, I totally missed the entire 2nd paragraph! Working from a smart phone.

So you’ve got the sway bar and camber dialed in. Trail braking into a fast corner will help induce oversteer. With DSC off, might even get more than you wanted

Softer front sway bar may also help.

 

Hey Charlie -

I also running 36psi in the front, but 28 in the back, on a daily basis.

I came up with the camber settings by by checking the tire scrub in the mountains near me. I set them to one setting, then hit the mountains. Found the front needed more, rear seemed to be good with the -3/4°. I went to the -1.5° and tried again. It could maybe use a "little" more, but this is a daily driver type car and don't want to be wearing the tires heavily on the inside. Then reset the toe at both ends.
I came up with the tire pressures, the same basic way, just looking at the tread, seeing what it was doing, scrub wise.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, the car IS fun to drive. Like you mention, I hardly ever use the brakes around town for corners. Just turn the wheel. It normally scares people at the intersection, when they see me coming so fast and heading into the turn, right for them. I've seen folks with really BIG eyes ! The car just...drives the corner like saying... "give me more" ! One day, I think I had a Harley type biker about to crap his pants. I didn't do it on purpose to scare him, I was looking into the corner, and just didn't pay a lot of attention to him until I was right there.

I've got normal / non-adjustable shocks on the car, no corner weights measured.

This in my first - offshore car, front wheel drive car, very short car, (2nd) independent rear suspension car.
I did have a mid engine Corvair for a while, years back. A 350 Chevy in the back seat of a 66 Corvair. I bought it used. It was a piece of crap, but even saying that, it went around corners...well, sorta like a good Mini..! Gotta love a tight polar moment of inertia..!

Thanks

Mike

P.s. - The car's only got just over 20,000 miles on it (2005 JCW) so it's still pretty tight everywhere. I did put urethane bushings in the front lower control arms though. I removed the previous owners and made my own front shock tower support out of two brands of supports. I bought it with the larger rear anti-sway bar already installed. 205-55 x 16" Dunlop tires.

 

The rear of the Mini doesn't really behave like many other cars as there is so little weight over the rear and the there is so little rear overhang. The rear of the car doesn't have much of a pendulum effect like you would get in longer cars and certainly not like your old Corvair with it's rear engine! The Mini also has a trailing arm multilink rear suspension that gives decent camber control so there is pretty solid mid corner grip generated by the suspension geometry. Seems to me your method of dialling in the camber and tire pressure is quite sound. Not much more you could do without getting into changing parts in a significant way. A FF layout car will never give that same kind of sliding rear end throttle steering feel you'd get from a rear drive car, and that's fine. The Mini has its' own charms in its front wheel driveness.

On a bit of a tangent: In the book Engineer To Win by Carroll Smith he states that tire width should correspond to the weight over a given axle. The Mini has a weight distribution of about 60/40, which would mean that the front tires should really be wider than the rears because they carry more load. 225s in the front and 205s or 195s in the rear would certainly be an interesting experiment that would recalibrate the handling balance of the Mini. Maybe that would get you to the balance you are seeking without having to employ extreme front camber.

 

I did run my R53 with front 8" rims and rear 7" rims (225/205) and that worked pretty well. That car won a regional STX championship back around 2008 as I recall.

I have not tried the asymmetrical setup on the F56, but run 8:" rims on all four corners. I reckon I am getting old...

Cheers,

Charlie