In the couple of weeks I've been on NAM, I've read COUNTLESS threads on pully upgrades, ECUs, exhausts, intakes, CAIs...you name it. And to be honest, considering how few upgrades my M had, it's more than a little daunting trying to figure out what to buy - what gives the best gains for the least $$, what is going keep reliability high, what requires the least regular maintenance?

I'll also be the first to admit that the 'look' of my Mini will be as important as the performance - I won't drive a superfast bondo machine, nor will I drive a BLING family sedan. I need a mixture of both. So please don't crucify me when I go with the 17" wheels (looks) or the heavy sunroof (to appease my wife - still a maybe), because I *am* interested in good performance. While I may not be an AutoX'er, I am a pretty decent driver (at the performance driving test for BMW and Saab, I nabbed the fastest lap times - usually within 2 sec. of the instructors) and I like to push the car.


So my question really is - is the JCW kit worth the money? From what I can tell so far, here's the basic breakdown:

Pros
- complete kit, no need to buy parts that may not work well together
- decent hp increase
- one word, WARRANTY
- can be financed, meaning no nail biting before I put it on my credit card anyhow

Cons
- equivalent gains from separate upgrades for less money
- can't "buy as you go", requiring a significant financial outlay
- paying for an exhaust I might not want to keep (I like the sounds of the Milltek and Borla sport)
- dealer installation costs


I will admit that reading all your upgrades initially made me decide to go the aftermarket route. However, the number of threads about required warranty service have made me reconsider a little. Now I'm leaning towards the JCW kit - at least until the warranty is gone, and then changing what I please. Oh, with aftermarket wheels and stereo - I just don't think the stock versions of either are what I want.

So anyhow, I'm looking for more expert advice from you guys. ANY comments, opinions, experiences, etc. are more than welcome. Thanks!

Doug

 

gravedgr,
Thanks for your long post and aloha and welcome to NAM.

>>In the couple of weeks I've been on NAM, I've read COUNTLESS threads ... - what gives the best gains for the least $$, what is going keep reliability high, what requires the least regular maintenance?

It is true there are many options. That is part of the fun picking what you want. Of course there are pros and cons about any choice.

>>I'll also be the first to admit that the 'look' of my Mini will be as important as the performance -

Sounds like many of us, we want some drivable power and good looks but not far off the edge.

>>So my question really is - is the JCW kit worth the money? From what I can tell so far, here's the basic breakdown:


In a nutshell, if you can afford the $6000 or so for JCW and you want the warranty then yes it is worth it.
The good alternative due out soon this month is the Stage 2 DINAN kit for the MCS for less money with a warranty up to 4 years if you install it when the car is new.

>>Pros
>>- complete kit, no need to buy parts that may not work well together
>>- decent hp increase
>>- one word, WARRANTY
>>- can be financed, meaning no nail biting before I put it on my credit card anyhow

While it is a kit, some will think it is not really complete since it does not address suspension, brakes, exhaust header, throttlebody, intercooler size, ignition, etc.
HP-increase: you could get almost the same increas in HP just from adding the 19% reduction pulley, alta intake with Hose and Milltek/UUC exhaust alone for $1000s less but no warranty from the dealership.
Warranty -Yes
Financed? Yes if you buy it as part of the new car purchase.

>>Cons
>>- equivalent gains from separate upgrades for less money
>>- can't "buy as you go", requiring a significant financial outlay
>>- paying for an exhaust I might not want to keep (I like the sounds of the Milltek and Borla sport)
>>- dealer installation costs
Not only equal gains but additional gains for less money if you consider ECU upgrade, wheels, Quaife LSD.
The $6000 is a big chunk for all at once and is still not the whole upgrade kit- some owners will want suspension and brake upgrades, etc.
The JCW exhaust looks good but is not the best power performer and it is rather quiet for people that live an aggresive deep exhaust note.
Dealer install is 10+ hours labor at about $100 per hour.

Additionally some of us have poor service from dealers so an install and warranty from that dealer might be something of less value. Your results may vary.
>>
>>I will admit that reading all your upgrades initially made me decide to go the aftermarket route. However, the number of threads about required warranty service have made me reconsider a little. Now I'm leaning towards the JCW kit - at least until the warranty is gone, and then changing what I please. Oh, with aftermarket wheels and stereo - I just don't think the stock versions of either are what I want.

The more you add aftermarket upgrades the more gets in the way if you need warranty work. My dealership wants the car in stock configuration in order to troubleshoot problems if and when they occur.
The following may present a problem for the dealership:
Tower strut bar- blocks access to the engine for oil filter change or installation of JCW kit
Ignition upgrades-Coil, wires, plasma booster- may affect electrical system/lights, etc.
Audio subwoofer enclosures or upgrades in the boot-may block access to the MCS battery which is needed for ECU update
Aftermarket alarm system wired into stock wiring harness- interferes with electrical trouble shooting when there are problems with the lights.

The following are probably safe mods that don't cause trouble and need to be removed before warranty work is performed by the dealership:
Any cold air intake or drop in air filter
Any cat-back exhaust
Any exhaust Header
Any rear swaybar
Any tire upgrade on stock rims

Best bang per buck for the MCS?
19% pulley upgrade
Alta intake with hose
Milltek Sport Cat-back exhaust
ECU upgrade- Powerchip ($700) via Webbmotorsport for now and GIAC once it arrives (maybe $500)
Rear 22mm Swaybar

Reliability?
All of the above and maybe change the pulley to 15% for the most reliability and least maintenance (doesn't need a smaller belt that will last about 30,000 miles then need changing).

Have fun and look into that DINAN kit stage 2. The difference is that the DINAN kit adds a rebored throttlebody and adds a reduction 15% pulley not a whole supercharger and reworked cylinder head like JCW.

 

Here's my take:

The JCW costs about $5500 installed and offers performance comparable to aftermarket parts that cost about $1500 installed. That's $4,000 difference. NAM posters have picked up complete used engines with supercharger, etc. for between $2500 and $3000. Figure another $1000-$1500 for installation and there's your "insurance policy".

Of course, search here and MINI2 for posts about engine failures due to mods. I haven't seen ANY.

 

>>Here's my take:
>>
>>The JCW costs about $5500 installed and offers performance comparable to aftermarket parts that cost about $1500 installed. That's $4,000 difference. NAM posters have picked up complete used engines with supercharger, etc. for between $2500 and $3000. Figure another $1000-$1500 for installation and there's your "insurance policy".
>>
>>Of course, search here and MINI2 for posts about engine failures due to mods. I haven't seen ANY. :smile:

Peace,
D

 

If your looking to keep the MINI for a short period of time, or the price of the JCW kit scares you, go aftermarket.

The JCW kit is a well matched upgrade. You get a reworked supercharger with a coating to protect the rotors from the higher heat generated by the additiional RPM's and better dealing, the drive to the water pump is regeared to allow for the additional RPM's as well. The cylinder head is ported and polished for an additional 15% air flow. They include a smaller drive belt for the smaller pulley, and plugs to match. Then the ECU program is remapped.

Gives you an easy 200+ HP. Install the MILLTEX header and larger throttle body
and you'll be one happy person. I have this setup, and it is great. Extremely smooth performance, goes like hell, and will be easy to sell if I ever put it on the market.

 

One other thing to think about is resale and, in Canada at least, insurance. A JCW will be worth more money while a MINI upgraded with aftermarket bits won't sell for any more. Sure you could part out the car when you're ready to sell but that means hanging onto each stock piece. Not to mention you can't take something like a pulley off and go back to a true stock pulley, stock size yes, true pulley no. In some cases resale of an aftermarket tuned MINI could deter potential buyers. Could even sell for less because of that.

Insurance, in Canada at least the insurance companies are slowly killing the aftermarket business. Just the other day the son of a fellow SOMC member inquireed about some suspension bits with his insurance company. His car, a Miata, was bone stock but he was starting to think some lowering springs. The insurance company told him that the mods would void his insurance. To make matters worse, just for inquiring they sent him a letter and dropped his policy. This is happening more and more in Canada. The same goes for any aftermarket mod, if it increases horsepower significantly they flip! The JCW on the other hand is a completely insurable addition to the car, aftermarket bits seldomly are. This particular fellow with the Miata ended up having to take pictures of his car and send them to the insurance company to prove he was stock.

All this being said, thanks to Tuner Transformation I've now got a JCW. Do I like it? Yes, it's better than what I had from a "polish" perspective. It feels like "one." However the car is no more powerful than what I had before and this "polish" isn't worth the extra thousands of dollars that the JCW costs.

Cheers,

Paul

 

As you've probably read here on NAM and on other boards, most of us who have made the JCW choice are VERY happy with our decision.

I, like many others though, believe there are choices available for everyone. No matter whether the factors are based on cost, warranty, piece-by-piece, do-it-yourself, or whatever other is important to the owner, they are all out there.

It's not the do-all-end-all, I have also made additional mods to improve the car over all (see signature). My choice was easy, even though I own a race shop, and have even helped a couple of other Mini owners with their own aftermarket mods.

I'd be happy to offer you my recommendation but you can probably guess.

 

FURIOSO wrote:Word on the street is the same coating is on ALL new MCS superchargers. Are you sure about the water pump gearing? Where did you get the 15% flow number?

 

Thanks Andy, D, and Minihune for the replies. $$$ is not a very big obstacle, as having to figure out what to do while the car is in the shop for repairs is much worse than anything I might spend on upgrades.

Thanks also Furioso - I was hoping someone who did buy the JCW would respond so I had some counterpoints from the other side of the fence.

To paraphrase dgszweda (referring to ECU options) - no one is going state that their upgrades are a poor choice, or else why would they have chosen them. That's why I'm looking for honest opinions - the more the better. I have also considered aftermarket package upgrades like the mini-madness Stage 2 or Stage 3. Part of my dilemma is having someone install any aftermarket upgrades I choose since I'm a techie and a little scared of changing engine parts (I did my own BMW alarm, but I don't do audio equipment either).

Luckily RSpeed and a person or two off the Atlanta MINIs site seem to be well versed in Mini upgrades. But thanks again for all the input - it doesn't make the decision easier, but it makes it a little less scary.

Doug

 

>>Thanks Andy, D, and Minihune for the replies. $$$ is not a very big obstacle, as having to figure out what to do while the car is in the shop for repairs is much worse than anything I might spend on upgrades.
>>
>>Thanks also Furioso - I was hoping someone who did buy the JCW would respond so I had some counterpoints from the other side of the fence.
>>
>>To paraphrase dgszweda (referring to ECU options) - no one is going state that their upgrades are a poor choice, or else why would they have chosen them. That's why I'm looking for honest opinions - the more the better. I have also considered aftermarket package upgrades like the mini-madness Stage 2 or Stage 3. Part of my dilemma is having someone install any aftermarket upgrades I choose since I'm a techie and a little scared of changing engine parts (I did my own BMW alarm, but I don't do audio equipment either).
>>
>>Luckily RSpeed and a person or two off the Atlanta MINIs site seem to be well versed in Mini upgrades. But thanks again for all the input - it doesn't make the decision easier, but it makes it a little less scary.
>>
>>Doug
>>

gravedgr,

Are you in Atlanta? If so, I would recommend RSpeed, they are a great company. I have had some work done there as have many others on this board. And none of us have anything but praise for them. They will even do routine work for you such as oil changes.

No one else has mentioned this, but some dealerships will install aftermarket items, and will cover them under warranty. You may want to check around. Each dealership is independent, so it just depends what their service department is comfortable with. I have heard some dealerships covering pulleys, LSD's, suspension mods, aftermarket rims and exhausts. On the flipside some dealerships are real pains about it.

I agree with all the comments made. You can pay for a lot of work out of your pocket before you exceed you savings from going aftermarket. But a lot of people like the heritage the JCW provides and the resale value it will have. I don't think in and of itself the JCW kit is any more reliable than the main aftermarket suppliers.

 

I had the JCW installed on my September ' 04 delivered MINI before I drove off the lot. I had test driven both the MCS and JCW MCS and was very happy with the upgrade performance.

I now have 18,000 miles (yes, in only 7 months) and still love my JCW MINI. I have been in several MINI get togethers for some very spirited driving and found that I was consistently running up the rear end of those in front of me, which included a few modded (15% pullies, CAI, etc) MINIs. Out at the autocross last week I found that the grip of the run flats is seriously holding back the application of power to the ground, as I was spinning tires every time I hit the gas. I have a new set of Kosei K1 racing rims on the way and trying to decide between Falken azenis or Kuhmo Victoracer's now so I can hold on to the street with my JCW power.

But I am rambling now......yes, the JCW is a great package and, for the reasons I got it (after all, it's not only cost vs power gain), it's fantastic. However, I would not argue with anyone that many mods can be done by yourself for cheaper, but for me the packaged feel and fit with the warranty was perfect. Even after you get 1,000 opinions on NAM about this, you really wont know what you want until you put together your personnal list of pro's and con's and make a decision.

 

>>gravedgr,
>>
>>Are you in Atlanta? If so, I would recommend RSpeed, they are a great company. I have had some work done there as have many others on this board. And none of us have anything but praise for them. They will even do routine work for you such as oil changes.
>>
>>No one else has mentioned this, but some dealerships will install aftermarket items, and will cover them under warranty. You may want to check around. Each dealership is independent, so it just depends what their service department is comfortable with. I have heard some dealerships covering pulleys, LSD's, suspension mods, aftermarket rims and exhausts. On the flipside some dealerships are real pains about it.
>>
>>I agree with all the comments made. You can pay for a lot of work out of your pocket before you exceed you savings from going aftermarket. But a lot of people like the heritage the JCW provides and the resale value it will have. I don't think in and of itself the JCW kit is any more reliable than the main aftermarket suppliers.

Thanks guys for the info - keep it coming! :smile: As for your question - yes, I'm in Atlanta (and finally got around to replying to your PM - sorry!). I actually found out about RSpeed from one of the aftermarket catalogs I ordered months ago (MiniMania, I think) - I was surprised and pleased to find a local aftermarket installer recommended by the parts manufacturer.

Speaking of aftermarket parts - has anyone here installed any of the Mini Madness performance upgrade packages? I like the idea of a package instead of having to put together a list of parts myself. The only thing I didn't like about theirs was the Evotech ECU which IIRC is one of the oldest and possibly produces the least gains. Any here who can speak to their packages?


Oh and one good point Minihune made is that suspension upgrades aren't part of the JCW, and I'm pretty sure I will want to swap out for some Koni coilovers or perhaps a set of sport springs in the not-so-far future. I can see my keeping this car beyond the payoff date if it proves to be a really fun driver, so reliability is key - but resale value is not that big of a deal to me (we lost $10k in value in our SUV the first year). :evil:

Doug

 

Doug,

I don't think there is anything wrong with these packages, per se. Two things to note, and you hit on one of them. The first, is that you may not like everything in the package. For example, you stated you didn't like the EVOTech ECU because it was old. Some people may not want to be constrained by the items in the package. Another example, is that you may not like the exhaust note of the exhaust that they include in their package. If it is too loud, it may not be worth the package. Second, the package may not meet what your performance requirements are. For example, instead of paying for the header, you may want an LSD put on. The package is only a representation of what that tuner feels someone wants. The most bang for the buck is the Stage 2 package. You will notice that the cost becomes exponentially higher as you climb the packages. Up to about 215hp it is quite reasonable. Above that you may really want to focus on handling. The packages also push you into stages. If you are looking for 220hp, you can probably throw in the throttlebody and you might be there. Anyway, these are some considerations. Most of the packages are the same types of components, it just depends on which components you care about.

 

>>Doug,
>>
>>I don't think there is anything wrong with these packages, per se. Two things to note, and you hit on one of them. The first, is that you may not like everything in the package. For example, you stated you didn't like the EVOTech ECU because it was old. Some people may not want to be constrained by the items in the package. Another example, is that you may not like the exhaust note of the exhaust that they include in their package. If it is too loud, it may not be worth the package. Second, the package may not meet what your performance requirements are. For example, instead of paying for the header, you may want an LSD put on. The package is only a representation of what that tuner feels someone wants. The most bang for the buck is the Stage 2 package. You will notice that the cost becomes exponentially higher as you climb the packages. Up to about 215hp it is quite reasonable. Above that you may really want to focus on handling. The packages also push you into stages. If you are looking for 220hp, you can probably throw in the throttlebody and you might be there. Anyway, these are some considerations. Most of the packages are the same types of components, it just depends on which components you care about.

Yep - you're right on the money of what I was thinking: I like the package, but is a package deal (cheaper than all the component individually - maybe, maybe not - but at least I don't have to track them all down) going to saddle me with unwanted parts. Honestly, I like the Stage 2 performance package - good price, right about where I was looking to go HP-wise, and I like most of the parts (I'm undecided on the EVOtech - not enough info). I like their suspension packages too - just not sure if coilovers are 'too much' or 'just right' for me. May need to find someone who has them and compare.

Speaking of the LSD - I know everyone highly touts Quaiffe. Any thoughts on how 'necessary' an LSD is with the increased power expected from the package, from JSW, or piecemeal upgrades? My target is 200-215 hp. I'd love more, but I think I'll save any radical upgrades for further down the road when I've made my long-term vs. short-term ownership decision.

Doug

 

I have the JCW and I can tell you the one reason I got it instead of saving money and going after market is because you can finance it. It was included in the price of the car. If you got 4K spare change after buying a MCS go aftermarket if not you are forced to go JCW. I didn't go in to the dealrship with 37K cash, I financed, so 3K-4k savings wasn't in my eqaution. It was finance it or NEVER get it.

The warranty is nice, the JCW badging is also nice but it all boiled down to what I could get financed. Also it an image thing, I wanted my cooper to have the JCW. If my motives were about top speed and handling I dont think the mini would have made my list.

Paul

 

I'll also pipe in that the reason I never even looked at anything else other than the JCW kit is that I am fairly certain BMW is going to be around in the next fifteen or 20 years......I am not so sure that will be the case with any after market supplier.
Of course a lot of the posts here come from owners defending the JCW kit and sellers of aftermarket kits trying to plug their particular wares......fair enough......some like it nice, branded and expensive, others like different things.....bottom line, your choice......I am positive you will enjoy either route.......
race ya!! :smile:

 

If you want the full warranty and are going to be happy with the JCW power and don't plan on adding any future mods then it's a good idea if you can afford it. The stock JCW will be worth more money in the end but if your like Paulmon who got his JCW free from tuner transformation and now wants more power, the JCW is a bad idea. Once you start to mod the JCW you start to loose it's value because you are replacing Factory warrantied/approved JCW items with aftermarket item and are in the same position as the rest of us who went the aftermarket route and saved $4500. Choice is yours and depends on your circumstances. Nothing wrong with JCW for what it is.

 

In the VERY long term, a completely stock, Series I (pre '05) Cooper S with contemporary, dealer-installed JCW will be the most valuable of the new Minis. No doubt.

So you'll only have to wait about 40 years to break even on that JCW.

 

I have a JCW equipped MCS (#492) and love it. Have no regrets about spending the extra $. Fully factory-backed, smooth, and fast. I seriously considered the aftermarket route as well, but in the end decided on JCW because I'm a busy person and just didn't want to have to worry about arguing/suing dealers if they wouldn't cover something because of aftermarket mods. Just don't have the time for it. Love the car and the 200hp ! I'm sure you can pretty much match the power going aftermarket, but resale will be better on JCW so you'll get a big chunk of the premium back if you eventually sell it.

 

I decided on the Works kit as well. From a simple cost-benefit standpoint, the JCW performance increases obviously don't make sense. Everyone knows that you can get the same (or even more) performance inreases for much less money. It really comes down to the other factors that have been previously mentioned: status - heritage - exclusivity - warranty - resale value ... etc. (That little John Cooper Works badge is one expensive piece of metal!)

What I've done is to enhance other areas of the car that the JCW kit has ignored: namely: tires, wheels, brakes, and suspension. I have also added Cobra Daytona seats, (on order ... I don't think we will be getting the JCW seats in the US), an Alta CAI and I'll probably get a UNICHIP from Randy when it is available. I have kept all of my original parts. The Alta can be removed and the stock air box can be put back in a matter of minutes, the UNICHIP can be simply unplugged ... and the other parts ... suspension and brakes ... are all boxed up. Everything can be put back ... if necessary.

For me, the JCW has really transfored the car. It will be interesting to see what degree of improvement the UNICHIP will make. But, after that ... basically I'm done.

ftbt

2002 Works Cooper S, Sn. 1165, DS/W; Custom Cobra Daytonas; Sport + Premium + Alta CAI + H Sport Springs, Competition Front & Rear Sway Bars, Rear Camber Control Arms + 17" Team Dynamics Pro Race 1's; 215-45-17 Kumho MX's + AP Racing Formula Big Brakes, X Drilled + Slotted Rotors, Goodridge SS Lines + Clear Bra + Schroth Harness and a full tank of 100 octane ... life is good!

2002 CVT Cooper LY/W + Sport + 17" S Lites & Pirelii Euforias + Clear Bra

 

As someone facing the same choices, I just wanted to chime in to say what an enormously useful thread this has proven. Among the most useful I've found here, and that is saying quite alot.

Compliments to all involved.

 

It appears the same $5500 will get you an aftermarket S at close to 250 hp that will blow away the JCW....now that's an S I'd love to take for a test drive :smile: ...
I drove the test JCW at the dealership and although quicker at the high end and better use of 6th gear, certainly not worth $5500 since I drive mostly around town

 

>>So my question really is - is the JCW kit worth the money? From what I can tell so far, here's the basic breakdown:
>>
>>Pros
>>- complete kit, no need to buy parts that may not work well together
>>- decent hp increase
>>- one word, WARRANTY
>>- can be financed, meaning no nail biting before I put it on my credit card anyhow
>>
>>Cons
>>- equivalent gains from separate upgrades for less money
>>- can't "buy as you go", requiring a significant financial outlay
>>- paying for an exhaust I might not want to keep (I like the sounds of the Milltek and Borla sport)
>>- dealer installation costs


is the JCW kit worth the money? That's a personal choice. You'll have to add a weight (select a number from 1 to 10 with 10 being most important) to each of the pro and cons you listed. Once done. Add them up and which ever side, pro or con, stacks the heaviest is your choice. Can you post how you numerically rate the pros and cons you've listed?

 

Just as a quick update, I went yesterday and test drove an '04 MCS and then test drove an '03 JCW MCS they had on the showroom, so I wanted to give some quick impressions.

First, the kit does make a siginificant differences in the performance feel of the car. It was hard to 'butt-dyno' the car as we had the climate control on full throttle, but it definitely pulled better. The exaust didn't seem to be much different, maybe a little louder, but I *really* liked the whine coming from the supercharger. I liked it enough to AGAIN reconsider my decision of JCW vs. aftermarket. *sigh*


>>is the JCW kit worth the money? That's a personal choice. You'll have to add a weight (select a number from 1 to 10 with 10 being most important) to each of the pro and cons you listed. Once done. Add them up and which ever side, pro or con, stacks the heaviest is your choice. Can you post how you numerically rate the pros and cons you've listed?
>>

Since you asked, here's what I'd rate them:

Pros
- complete kit, no need to buy parts that may not work well together (7)
- decent hp increase (7)
- one word, WARRANTY (5)
- can be financed, meaning no nail biting before I put it on my credit card anyhow (3)

Cons
- equivalent gains from separate upgrades for less money (8)
- can't "buy as you go", requiring a significant financial outlay (4)
- paying for an exhaust I might not want to keep (I like the sounds of the Milltek and Borla sport) (5)
- dealer installation costs (5)

Those are just arbitrary numbers that could easily change, but the totals were Pros-22, Cons-22. I guess that's why the decision is so tough.

Doug

 

I can post a dyno plot of my MCS vs. a JCW if you'd like?

The JCW had a Rogue intake and JCW exhaust. I have the 19% overdrive pulley, Rogue intake, and Magnaflow exhaust.

Let me know if you want to see the comparison.