i can understand why someone would 'think' the JCWorks car would be comparable to the 135i --but simply based on starting price, it'd have to be comparable to the 128i.

logic over emotional appeal, right?

the JCWorks package is going to be awesome, but like others have stated,when you add in the suspension, the LSD option (ediff? who's trusting this?) and any other options, it becomes a pricey proposition.

personally, i'd not buy one new. i'd let someone else take the depreciation hit and then get a 1 year old car. it won't be for everyone and you can bet there'll be people trying to bail out of them and into that 1er after about 1 year.

 

That's what BMW said about the Z4 at first. Now we have the M Coupe.

and vice-versa.

 

Don't tempt me....the last time I drove one I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks.

 

MF's web site is run by authoritarian monkeys who'd rather remove posts of OBJECTIVE views than face facts. They have removed some of my posts which clearly point out flaws in their marketing tactic and production of their JCW car. Many here have presented most, if not all, of the issues which BMW has failed to address.

The recently publicized view that "a blank canvas for owners to express themselves" is the reason for 'half-assing' the new JCW car is pathetic. If I really wanted to express myself and BMW really wanted me to provide the "blank canvas" then I would have the option to add the brake kit (which I don't want or need since I'm not tracking the car) and add the rims (which I don't find especially attractive). Ignoring the ride height, optioning the suspension, and optioning the JCW skirts doesn't make this a JCW car.

Sorry, but who is running the show making these decisions? These people shouldn't be deciding what plants I should be growing in my garden, let alone what an auto company should be building and selling.

 

look, i'd love to own the JCWorks car --but there's no way i'm paying 35k for a MINI when it's my commuter car. it's way too precious when the car (which starts out at 21k) suddenly becomes a 35k proposition. ultra performance or not, i'm happy with either the standard MCS (which i have) or an MCS with the stage I kit.

getting the JCWorks car still doesn't make the MINI a sports car. it makes it 'faster', but it's still FWD and there are limits to what one can expect for the car.

i'm of the mind that it's about as good as it can be as is. get a real sports car for sports car driving is my thinking and what i'm doing.

 

I believe that a lot of us have expressed our displeasure of Mini's direction regarding the pricing schedule, option lists and the like. If they had followed the suit of the 135i with all of the performance options in place, it would have much more of an option....at this point all one can do is to wait for the production version to come out and be tested.

 

dems fighting words around here!

 

Most definitely--check a well driven MINI out on a track with a bunch of twisties and relatively short straights and it'll more than hold its own against cars that fit the classic definition of a "sports car", and be more fun to drive as well. The MINI may not be much of a drag racer, but its no slouch on the track.

 

i love my MINI dearly, but sports car it ain't.

anyone who tries to say otherwise is in pure denial.



the physics of it is all wrong is the first part. if you put the fastest JCW head to head against a spec miata at a track, i do honestly believe the spec miata, which does not have any power advantage, would still be faster. FWD is a packaging thing for compactness --it's not ideal for putting power down. i don't mean to offend anyone at all, but this just seems obvious to me.

 

On a track, the fastest JCW beats a spec Miata hands down. Shouldn't even be close. The Miata would be beat significantly on HP (and more importantly) Torque, and the MINI weighs less, and handles as well, or at least reasonably close to, the Miata.
I don't have any experience with a JCW versus a Miata on the track, but I do with an R53 JCW and an RX-8, and the MINI more than held its own. I have LSD on my MINI, and have no problems with "putting the power down".

Heck, a JCW MINI can do more than keep up with a Boxster on the track with no problems at all, and even a Boxster S--this is from first hand experience, and I'm just a novice driver.

I'd encourage you to take a JCW out on the track before you come to any conclusions; you'd be VERY surprised what it can keep up with, especially on a road track with numerous turns.

Front wheel drive brings its own set of challenges/disadvantages, but the handling of the MINI overcomes much of that. No offense taken, but you're seriously underestimating what the MINI can do on the track. But that's ok, it makes it just that much more fun at HPDE's....

 

it's heartening to know that the MINI can hold its own at the track, but for a dedicated track car, i'd still never choose a FWDer.

 

That's understandable, there are advantages to rear wheel drive, but the MINI is still very capable--even against cars you wouldn't expect.

 

i'd guess that great drivers could run circles around most people, esp. on HPDEs, but the MINI's strength might be how forgiving it can be as a chassis --the tendency to understeer, though, at the track, would aggravate me to no end. instead of fighting it all of the time with tire pressures and sways, i'd focus more energy and effort on NOT spending 35k for a MINI, maybe 26k instead? and spend the rest toward something more neutral in its handling.

 

You'd be surprised just how much putting on a larger RSB all but eradicates that complaint.

 

okay --so then how do we manage to get around the front wheels putting power to the ground AND steering and the 65% of the weight on the front of the car gig?

see what i mean?

both of you are proponents of the car (as am i), but your solutions are either band-aid type things or simply being a superior driver. superior drivers will always outperform others at the track (not usually difficult to do depending on run group) and band-aids can ease the problem but not make it go away.

hence, my earlier point that the MINI isn't really a sports car. by configuration, it's got a lot going against it. that doesn't mean people can't try, but in BMWCCA or SCCA racing or other homologated racing series, the RWDers will still have a huge advantage.

 

Yes, a MINI is a front wheel drive car, the wheels have to brake, steer, and put power to the ground--but that doesn't necessarily mean it handles like most front wheel drive cars. Most rear wheel drive cars are built with understeer too--for safety reasons. So the same "band-aid" we use in MINIs, many people will have to do in a true sports car configuration as well to get neutral handling. Granted, we can't use throttle induced oversteer, that's off limits, but that's not how I drive anyway.

And with the MINI, a stiffer rear sway bar, and negative camber up front and you've got a neutral car. Too much sway bar, and you can get oversteer big time.

You say the MINI has alot going against it, but it also has alot going for it--its very light, very nimble, and it allows you to take corners at much higher speeds than many true sports cars. Its very easy to modify, and you can get neutral steering very quickly. If you want to drift or if you like overtaking on the straights with brute horsepower (not nearly as much fun as catching someone on a corner IMHO), the MINI isn't your beast, but if you like to drive precise lines, the car is very forgiving and very fast on the track--not to mention very rewarding. I won't argue that a well driven car will beat a poorly driven car regarldless of the cars, but I'd also throw out there that a well driven MINI can more than keep up with many well driven sports cars--alot of this depends on the track admittedly--but the car is amazing at the track. If you haven't gotten yours out to the track, you really need to--it'll open your eyes. The car has a ton of capability, at this point more capability than I have ability--which is why it'll be awhile before I get out of mine.

There is nothing more fun than catching a cart twice as expensive on the track with a little ol' MINI, although many of those drivers have an extreme reluctance to give you a pass....

 

^Exactly. I didn't comment at all on getting around the front wheels putting down power and steering, plus the weight bias. I was just commenting that the MINI's tendency to understeer/not be a neutral handler can be very easily dealt with.

 

on the original subject: it's not immediately clear to me that the JCWorks car, which is reasonably going to be $33-35k with "normal" options, is quite the bargain to be had.

i'd not compare this car to the 135i at all because the 135i with options is probably a 43k car.

that said, i don't mean to call into dispute the ability of a MINI to go on track at all and to do well. it has a short enough wheelbase so it should be neutral, if that's possible in a FWDer. i meant to imply that for pure sports car, the JCWorks car is still not pure. it has heritage stemming from being a lightweight package, but it's not exactly setup to be a bahnstormer. i do believe the MINI struggles in sanctioned racing in the US. maybe it's because it's not powerful enough, but i also suspect that the RWDers have the handling advantage. being to put the power down early is always an advantage.

 

Actually, in SCCA, the MCS dominates its class--so much so there has been a call to bump it up. Not sure about the MC (I think it does pretty well in its class), but the MCS does just fine, to the point where a whole bunch of people racing SCCA dumped what they were driving and bought and MCS.

Not true of the JCW, which is misclassed as it currently stands--its outgunned in its class. It should eventually be reclassed.

It really depends on what you want out of the car. The MINI is technically a great car to drive at the track; every instructor I've had has commented on what a great track car the MINI is, and how much fun, given its light weight, to toss around. Its an incredibly rewarding car if you like to hit the line--it you're into drifting and mashing the car through corners, its not set up for that.

I won't argue the value of the JCW works car--I've beaten that to death already; suffice it say that I think MINI really screwed that one up.

I would highly recommend taking your MINI to and HPDE if you haven't already; you'll be pleasantly surprised....

 

Meh. Too much money. Like others have said, you can get the alta stuff and it'd be faster anyway. If you want to change the suspension you'd have to go ala carte anyway. Also, 21 lb wheels? That's just too heavy. I'm sure the tires won't be high performance summer's either.

 

not sure if trackwork is in my future with the MCS (i am not fond of NHIS) but autoX might be.

i'll do the best that i can with the car that is legal and see how it goes. i'm sure it'll be a lot easier than a 911 or a C6 Z06 was because it's very forgiving.

 

My 2006 Factory JCW came to $32k w/minimal options. I have since added the JCW suspension for $1k installed. So, no, that price seams about right. I don't have the JCW aero kit.

 

MINI, for engineering, marketing, or profit based reasons, felt the need to beef up the transmission and clutch as they crossed the 200 hp barrier. I've no doubt that the Alta goodies can produce the horsepower but at what expense to the longevity of the clutch and transmission?

 

Also, the Mini JCW is a separate Mini model, and will always be worth more than a MCS. Cost of Alta or other mods to a MCS will not likely be recovered...so while the cost of entry is higher for the JCW, the cost of ownership probably isn't.

 

Until you have to replace the parts on the JCW which will be very expensive (moreso than the Alta stuff for sure). I'm not saying the JCW won't be awesome, but just like the stage I, the bang for the buck isn't really there.