yea that 0-60 time is bs. the stock r56 does it in 6.7 (according to BMW) and many testers have gotten faster times. so youre telling me that all those upgrades only soeed it up by .2 seconds. if that was the case, there would be no reason to even consider the JCW car. thats a joke. you could just get an air intake and get that 0-60 time out of it. and what would that say about the JCW Stage 1? Is that a 6.6 second 0-60? It has to be in between the two. so please do not base you opinions/decisions on that time, you know its wrong.

 

If you read my posts a bit more carefully, you'll see that I don't take much stock in 0-60 times anyway--apparently that got lost in translation. And I readily admitted that it was "on paper", in the very quote you where hammering me it was on paper. Geesh.

Yes, a Stage I with suspension upgrades will be faster on the track than a stage II without, given the drivers are equal. HP without handling at the track is useless, and the HP of the Stage II isn't that much higher than the Stage I anyway, and more importantly, neither is the torque. There isn't a huge difference in engine performance between Stage I and Stage II with the only caveat being that there is a small chance that the Stage II numbers BMW posted are dramatically off (The Stage I numbers however are better than what BMW posted, so that argument may end up being a wash anyway). If you don't believe a better handling car will outperform a car with slightly more horsepower, come out to the track sometime, where I've seen countless cars with tons of horsepower go very slow around the track, as they nosedive into each turn....

And this, IMHO, is where the JCW misses. It begs for a better suspension, and I'm not sold on the ediff versus a true LSD, but time will tell on that as well.

It's like some people here just can't accept any criticism of the stage II whatsoever (thats not directed at everyone who disagrees with what I'm saying; there are several posts that acknowledge my concerns and disagree with them with a rational discussion). I want to like this car, and a future variant may do it for me--I certainly hope so, I'd really like my next car to be as exciting to me as my current one.

 

i wasnt referring to you specifically, sorry for the misunderstanding. i just wanted to reiterate, for those who may not realize, that it is obviously very conservative. i wasnt trying to single anyone out.

 

I hope it works out for you,lets give it some time and see what Mini decides to do...I can only tell you that my Stage 1 with the Alta goodies and some suspension tweeks is stupid fun and very fast and as you say Exciting...I couldn't be happier,with a few little things added I am sure the new car will be even better ...yes it will be more expensive,but please try and tell me what isn't getting more expensive these days...let's see what happens,no matter what..It sure will be fun to drive

 

There is no incentive for Mini to make a complete car or better suspension since they can offer what they want, people will buy it and if they don't there is always the 135i from the mothership, which is still within the family.
It's all about the money and and from where they sit, their sales are up, their profits are up and why spend the R&D, money etc.

 

Mark--I'm glad you've got your car the way you want it--its how my R53 is now, and its awesome when you have a setup you're happy with. The setup you're running--Stage I with the suspension--is a great bang for the buck setup, and its kind of at the core of my frustration--I'm just not seeing the Stage II as a major step up in performance for the price. Again, maybe a supertuned version at the end of the cycle will come out, and all this will be mute, or maybe BMW is being very conservative on their numbers, and the JCW is hitting 230 HP (Which is about as much as I'd ever want anyway, provided the torque steer isn't too bad).

Like I said earlier, I have the luxury of time--I'll keep my current JCW R53 at least two more years, and I'd really like to stay in a MINI over the 135i (and I'm even willing to overpay a bit on the MINI to do so), but its got to be quite a bit better than currently advertised. Here's to hoping!

As for incentive for the suspension, it would cost them very little to go the JCW suspension factory installed--the parts aren't that expensive to begin with. I would have been perfectly happy with it as a factory installed option, or better yet, standard with an optional no charge delete. But not putting it on is a mistake--there are more people than I who are frustated to the point of considering something else--that should be incentive enough, but perhaps it such a small (but vocal) minority it doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things. Not all of them will cross shop a 135i--I will, but there are a number of good cars out there in this price range, although admittedly without the personality of the MINI (Even the 135i comes up deficient here).

 

He's right, they should offer the suspension kit from the factory, because that's where the car gets the most bang for the buck. The engine tuning kit is expensive for what they claim you get, and the (kink of goofy looking imo) aero kit is way expensive. I think they'd sell a lot of factory suspension kits if they added it for, say, $1500-1800 and put a little JCW badge on it somewhere. Just my .02.

 

yea, ive heard great things about the jcw suspension. in fact, im considering it myself. this in turn makes it harder to decide on other upgrades. i was thinking about a bigger sway bar, but if i get the suspension then i will get a bigger one so why buy one now? who knows? but i am considering the suspension and not the Stage 1. it seems like the suspension is a much better deal. opinions of course.

 

Again, you can't state this as a fact because there are no JCW cars built yet, let alone compared back-to-back on a racetrack.

I have a ton of track days under my belt over the last decade. You're missing a few key points when making your assertion: (1) All tracks are different. A high speed, bumpy track like the Nurburgring will favor a car with a bit more suspension compliance and more power. (2) As you stated, we don't know what kind of power these cars will be actually putting to the ground, either in terms of underrating or the new diff set-up. If the new diff gets power to the ground effectively, that alone could make up any advantage a JCW suspension has on an MCS Stage 1. (3) Brakes. Key element on the track. If the JCW's improved brakes hold up in a track session where the MCS's start to fade, it doesn't matter what suspension the MCS is running...it will have to slow down, and the JCW will be faster. (4) Classing. If you're serious about competing, compartively mild JCW suspension and engine mods on an MCS will bump it into a modified class, where it will most likely not be competitive. A stock JCW out of the box in a stock class, with trick diff and more power, may be faster in its class.

Bottom line is: We really don't know that much about the factory JCW car yet. Certainly not enough to criticize it from a performance standpoint.

 

Maybe this is just what Mini needs to hear...nothing is cut in stone and as all of you say the parts are certainly available at the factory...I drove cars with both the factory JCW suspension and mine with the mods....Both are great and BMW/Mini hopefully will get it right because a factory car should be offered if nothing else for it's engineering and the warranty.I have had the oppurtunity to speak to some factory folks about this and again lets see how it all pans out...nothing can even be ordered for at least till June...things change....hope it works out ...take care

 

Alan:

1: Yes, all tracks are different. But unless you're running an oval, the suspension will give a bigger improvement over the relative smaller gain in engine performance--essentially a bit more HP, very little torque--marginal improvement compared to a better suspension.

2.Its an ediff, not a true LSD. I'd be cautious here...The ediff is lighter than the LSD, but it was also a cost cutting measure.

3. Brakes mean nothing without tires. And its going to depend on the track, and how much time you're on the track. The main benefit of the JCW brakes won't be stopping power, but decreased fade, like you said. Depending on how you brake, it may not be that much of an issue, but yeah, I'll give you I'd rather have the aluminum 4 pots. But this brings another issue--brake ducts--which wasn't addressed. I'll leave it at that...

4. If the JCW suspension came out of the factory, that would more likely than not be beneficial, not a hindrance to class--it will be considered stock in the first place, another reason to have it included in the stage II.

And I respectfully disagree with you that we don't know enough about it to criticize it. Even if you throw the engine performance aspects out the window (wether you love them or are disappointed with them), the lack of JCW suspension hurts, the ediff is an unkown quantity (there are those that like it, and those that would trade it in a heartbeat for a true LSD on the 135i), and the fact that EVERY R56 JCW has been shown with an aerokit--which is not part of the package.

So yes, there is room for critcism--its the only way things will improve. Look, I love the MINI, and the fact that BMW brought it back, but that doesn't mean everything they've done with it has been perfect, or is beyond critique. By criticising, both here and at Motoringfile, I'm hoping some of these issues will be addressed. I'm not criticizing merely for the sake of criticizing, I'm being critical in hopes that some day the car will approach what I'm after. Purely selfish maybe, but I'm not the only one pushing for these things...Mark is right--things change, and there has been enough screaming and moaning about the suspension, maybe it will result in a change.

 

for those discussing the 135i and comparing it to the new works mini... although its an apples to orange thing, you are basically spending money for performance..

get around 35 to 40k for a rather odd group of performance cars, sti, evo x, new works mini, 135i and heck.. you can get a stripper 1lt vette for close to 39k if you look hard... things start to become confusing....

as to the 135i.. i will say this.. dinan has a kit for the 335i that pushes that car to 392hp torque 429, costs 2k can and comes with a warranty. since the 135i is basically the same engine as the 335i.. one assumes that dinan will provide the same upgrade for the 135i in short order... theoretically still making it possible to get the kit with a 135i for under 40k....

http://www.dinancars.com/assets/File...A%20EDITED.pdf

 

Perhaps, but we know that from a price point, it just doesn't stand up to the competition. One has to be infatuated with the Mini to drop 40K and still have a car that is slower on the street (and probably the track)

 

Again, I'll use the Nurburgring as an example: The Cayenne Turbo lap times are about the same as a Boxster S. Some tracks favor power. The JCW has more of it, and may be able to get it to the ground better. WE JUST DON"T KNOW YET.

It may be a POS. Again, my point is WE JUST DON'T KNOW YET.

Tires will most likely be identical to rolling stock on the MCS, so that's a moot point. If you read my post, I pointed out that the JCW brakes are for fade, not stopping power. This cannot be dismissed...on the track, brakes are as important, if not more so, than power. The JCW set-up seems to be a big improvement, but again, WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Or maybe with the JCW suspension as standard, the whole car would be bumped into a less competitive class. Maybe not. WE JUST DON'T KNOW.

Re-read my post...I said it can't be criticised yet from a performance standpoint. If you like the body kit, great. I think it's butt-ugly. If you want to lobby for it or feel the public is being mislead by Mini having it on the photo cars, feel free. My objection is that you are making performance claims months before job one rolls off the line.

 

It's a $29k car. If you insist on $10k in options, that's your issue, not the car's.

 

Alan--I'm done with this; its brick wall time. Suffice to say I'm disappointed in the Stage II JCW, and I think there is a bit too much BMW apologist attitude here about it, rather than constructive criticism. And I did read your post--hence the "decreased fade, like you said" in my previous reply....

Nothing more constructive is going to happen here; I'm out.

 

It's going to be a better version of an already good car. My lone wish for it would've been a suspension package so you wouldn't be wasting money paying for a suspension that you are taking off only to have the dealer service techs overcharge you to put another suspension on.

I just got my MCS last week and haven't gotten into the brakes yet and from someone that doesn't have the time or budget to spend much time on the track, I can say that I'd rather they have included the JCW suspension in the Stage II package and made the brakes optional for the track junkies. I can use the suspension almost every time I get in the car but the brakes--hardly ever.

And about the value proposition--any MINI becomes a poorer/questionable value when you load it up with options, so it shouldn't be a surprise that the stage II loaded up would also suffer this same fate.

 

It's hardly a 29K car...be real. Base suspension, heavy 17" wheels, and a lackluster interior. POS radio, no sunroof and I could go on.
You'll find that it is a mid 30's car before you can say boo. It's more than issue, it's patently absurd for Mini to jack the price up and ask us to accept it as is...I can't remember any flagship car for any brand that has been so lacking in standard features.
No, I don't insist on the options, I expect them at that price.

 

Me be real? Let's take a look: For $25.5k, you get an MCS with 17" wheels, premium package and leather to address your wants. You expect lighter 17" wheels, upgraded brakes, upgraded transmission, upgraded clutch, and reworked motor/turbo/exhaust with 20% more power for $29k? And the JCW suspension as part of the deal? That would be $3,500 for all of the above. A bit unrealistic.

Using today's pricing, you will be able to have a JCW with premium package, leather, and sport suspension for $32,500. That's a lot less than $40k.

 

For 29.2K you get a massaged tranny/motor/brakes. The base MCS is 21.2K. All that tweaking does not add up to 8K. The wheels are low pressure cast, they cost Mini a modest amount. They haven't changed the turbo or intake on the motor, just basically ported them, hence power output is still modest. The tranny and clutch are not brand new...plus you have to delete the cost of the original stuff.
You still have to pay for the JCW suspension and the dealer to install it.
You still have to pay for the LSD.
You still have to pay for any interior items and you can't even order the Recaros.
From a monetary viewpoint, Mini is making it hand over fist and I would be better off taking my current MCS and going to a reputable speed shop and the spending the same money for what I want, not what Mini offers.
Frankly, I'm waiting for the "build your own" to see what the real facts are and then I'll decide what to buy as the fun car.

 

JCW Stage 2 on the R56 is a nightmare. They replace nearly every component in the motor except a few connecting rods and of course the block. New head, valves, springs, pistons, new turbo, new exhaust, it's ridiculous.

I agree, for 35-40k it's rather ridiculous to buy a MINI, unless you're just that in love with the brand. Mine came out to ~ 32k after tax, and I thought I was out of my mind when I did that. 18 months later, after spending nearly 30k on engine, suspension, and aesthetics, I don't have a whole lot to show for it. If I had it to do over again for the money i've spent on my car I'd rather have a 911 or an M3. Not only would it be worth more, but it'd be a LOT faster .

 

No, you can't "delete the cost of the original stuff" to come up with a value for the JCW.

Every manufacturer has premium models with different parts that cost about the same to make, but add value to the vehicle. A $60k Escalade costs about the same to make as a $40k Tahoe. A $87k 997S costs about the same to make as a $73k 997...and for that matter, a $50k Cayman. In every case you could take the cheaper model and go to an aftermarket tuner to make a more invidualized vehicle...that's why the aftermarket is such big business...but then you take a risk with quality of materials and labor, and issues with warranty and resale.

 

Just got home and found my copy of EVO had come in....they have a four page article in the JCW. Nice picts as usual. Details are somewhat lacking although they make it sound as if the aero kit is standard(?), while MF and others have stated that it is optional.
Motor apparently has beefed up head, lower CR, turbo has larger inlet and runs at 1.3 bar. Manifolds massaged, new exhaust.
Bigger vented brakes (4pots). Suspension is basic MCS stuff.
Nice to look at in the EVO, volume 116.

 

40,000 dollars,

 

40,000 dollars, heck you can pick up this 2007 Elise for 38,000 on ebay right now. it has only 4,900 miles. I know this is off topic but if you want a wide open race car for the street this one is ready to go.