Random thought today - decided to search this car. Remember these little hot rod hatchbacks of the 80's? Way before our little MCS existed here in the US! These were all the rage when I got my license - you either wanted one of these or a GTI to pretend you were driving a "German" sports car!

Now consider the specs on this car from the late 80's (25 years ago) -
stock 175 hp/ 175 ft-lb torq. 0-60 in 6.5 seconds, quarter mile 14.8
If you had the MOPAR ECU tune boost would increase to 14.7 psi at WOT and hp/tq increased to 205/246. These little cars were truly pocket rockets in the day! How sad is it though, when you consider Dodge achieved that 25 years ago in a Dodge Horizon!!!!! And here we are 25 years later, driving a English born car, that the Germans have taken over and the specs in our cars are not that different.

A little perspective: The late 1980's 911 produced 207 hp and factory stats suggested 0-60 6.1 seconds (others published better times in the mid 5 second range). Jump ahead 25 years to the 997 911 and hp is 325-355 hp and 0-60 now sub 5 floating around the mid to low 4 second range.

To be fair, since our cars are now produced by BMW - let's compare 25 years of progress with the M3 then
E30 M3 192-238 hp. 0-60 6.9 - 6.1 seconds
E46 M3 333 hp 0-60 4.8 seconds
E90-92 M3 (not terribly fair to include for a host of reasons, but it does demonstrate continued forward progress, advancement and commitment to extreme driving capability)
400+ hp 0-60 3.9 seconds

It's reflecting on stuff like this that reminds me, although our Mini's are pretty cool, maybe they really could be something alot more special from the factory.

 

The Omni GLH (goes like hell) LMAO. I owned a 78 Omni what a pos!!!!! I had the VW block but nothing else. When it ran it ran great over 40 MPG on the highway. but that wonderful Holly Carb. Swore I would never buy an Omni (which meant all) again. That GLH was something else. I have never even test drove a Cooper S. Only went with a Justa. Couldn't justify the extra expense now. but in two years (if I ever get the CM we ordered) will probably get a Cooper S cabrio.

 

Well cars have gotten so much more efficient on power then they were 25 years ago. The only thing that sucks is that cars have gotten so bloated in the name of safety that we are driving stuff that would before so much better and get better gas mileage if it weighed as much as this car did. MINI Cooper S R56 weighs in at almost 2700 lbs while these bad boys were 2200lbs. Thats a big deal.

 

I remember looking at used GLHs when I was buying a car in 1987. They must be a blast to drive, because I must have looked at a half-dozen examples that had accumulated 50-75k miles in only two years.

 

A friend of mine's husband worked at a dealership when the GLH-S came out and she got one of the first one's in the area. A few days after she got it I showed up at a Christmas party she was at and she tossed me the keys and told me take it for a spin to see what I thought. I had never drive a turbo car before and I was blown away by the performance of that little car. I never drove another car like it until I got my MCS.

 

you are so right. Not only are the newer cars heavier but there is a big difference in fit and finish. the GLH's quality left alot to be desired compare that to the Mini of today and there is no comparison. Even the Omni's replacement the Neon didn't have great fit and finish. The transmission on the neon wasn't great either until they came out with the SRT or go to the PT Cruiser GT.that is where F &F started to show improvement.

 

Oh man I totally forgot that! So true though - even the standard 2.2 L Omni with manual transmission could tear it up off the line.

Definitely 500 lbs means something. But, come on - new m3, 911, subaru, mitso, etc all have safety crap and yet produce tons of usable (or even achievable) power. AC Schnitzer is bragging about the JCW Eagle and even with all their modifications, the car still only gets to 0-60 in 5.6 seconds. My god, my wife's IS 350 does 60 in the low 5 second range and that's without any modifications (and that car is way heavy)!

It was like permagrin as a teenager because you were driving such an unassuming looking car and it just screamed!!! How funny would it be for Dodge/Shelby to bring that car back all of a sudden - geez, maybe then BMW/MINI would suddenly make a Cooper more worthy of the german racing heritage.

 

http://www.allpar.com/omni/GLHS.php

Just a history of the car for those that don't know what it is. Like me.
The problem with the power is that you have to crank out more to over come the weight disadvantage though.

 

Oh totally - I'm sure if I drove one now - for instance if someone had one in perfect condition with 100 miles on it so it was truly like new condition - I'd be dismayed with how sloppy the shifter felt. And the interior was nothing impressive - seats were pretty close to standard Omni type - maybe sported up a little.

At any rate, it is surprising to me that given the appeal of sport hatchbacks and popularity of the Mini, the GTI, or even the 90's version of the Civic SI hatchback, that Dodge has re-introduced (since that's the new exciting thing from their engineers - re-introduce the old cars in new design) a modern monster version of the GLH.

Hmmmmm maybe a new business idea - buy up a bunch of old GLH's (if there are any) and restore, modernize and re-sell them.

 

While in college I bought a new 1984 Dodge Shelby Charger. Cool looking car, but quaility sucked and it was not the performer the GLH was. The hood started coming unglued from the hood frame at about 40,000 miles. Otherwise the thing was mint when I traded it in in 1989 for the new 1990 Acura Integra. What a up move that was!

 

Oh yeah! What about the mid 90's Integra GSR - wasn't it like one of the first cars to have the 8000 rpm redline! I remember when I test drove it and I wound it out in every gear - the look on the salesman's face like, "what the hell are you doing to this car?!" WEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

 

Really the 3 door hatchback has never gone out of style. They made some in the 50s and really it just carried on until the mid to late 80s when it really picked up and that is what we have today with the hot hatches. Hot Hatches is kinda of a dated term too. I really don't refer to my MINI as that. I just refer to it as a really nice car to drive. Unlike some toasters on the road now adays.

 

I bought a 1987 Shelby CSX new. It was a Dodge Shadow with a 175 HP intercooled turbo. I thought this car ran really well back then. 0-60 in 6.9 sec. Of course this is quite slow today.

 

But that's roughly the range the mini is from the factory. That is kinda my point about starting this thread. One would think bmw would make the car with much better numbers from the factory.

And there really is no way around it-our minis are hatchbacks-just more expensive ones sold by a high end german car company. But make no mistake-the mini is not a bmw.

 

Different motor. Remember that was a 2.2l 4 cylinder. We are dealing with a motor that has .6l less displacement cranking out roughly the same numbers. I think that is pretty damn good if you ask me.

 

Sure, we can concede that our tiny little engines do a great job of pushing out a boring amount of power that even by standards 25 years ago are still mediocre. But let's not just put a happy spin on the mediocrity. Come on, our Minis are being produced and sold via BMW. What BMW uses a 4 cylinder engine (not since the e30 M3 and geez, that was a 2.3L)? Don't you ever feel like we give way to much credit to the car because it's supposed to be cool and different and fun. Have you ever really considered that our Mini Coopers aren't that different than your neighbor's Corolla S? Trust me, I think my MCS is a cool little car. But I never get in it and feel anything like I did with my previous 2 true German sports cars! I can pretend all day long but it is a little hatch back sold by BMW that has to be pushed damn hard to feel like a race car. It really is not any more German than a VW GTI.


Let's go back to the primary point for beginning this thread. Dodge - a no frills US manufacturer was capable of making a hatch back 25 years ago that would make the Mini cry (and for a lot less money). Sure, you can put your fancy Polo and TOMS on and be all snooty and pretend you drive something fancy called a Mini and that makes it better than your bud's Dodge Omni GLH - but come on - that's semantics!

Just imagine if BMW really let the Mini engineering department go and build a truly competitive, high end, german engineered 3 door sports hatch! Something that would make you compare it to an Audi TT or a Cayman S. That's forward progress. And please, let's not get into the increased cost for better performance or additional interior touches. Geez - lots of other car makers (cough, Hyundai) are showing up the Germans that quality/performance can be achieved at a lesser expense.

How about this - what if it was not BMW (still never really fully wrapped my head around this) that revived the Mini. What if it was Hyundai or Chevy? That was the only difference - the car looked the same, ran the same, had the same specs, price. Would many of us being driving them? If Dodge were the one to have revived it - would it come standard with a 2.5L 275 hp engine?

 

I haven't spent much time inside an R56, but I would put my R52 up against anything from the U.S. or Japan in terms of switchgear, instrumentation and interior quality/materials.

I do agree that the MINI is underpowered. Personally, I think all variants (Cooper/S/JCW) need a 30-40 horsepower bump to really live up to the BMW origin and sporty aspirations of the model. I know that we're already well beyond the performance of the original Mini, but we at least need to acknowledge the MINI's modern competition.

I'm not sure that the Audi TT and Cayman S are appropriate targets, performance-wise, though. With the Cayman S, you're talking sub-five second 0-60 MPH times. That would have been Ferrari/Lamborghini territory just 25 years ago, and seems a bit beyond what the MINI represents. I wouldn't mind seeing something in the high-five second range though, at least for the JCW.

 

They are what came to mind in the sense of a 3 door format that was not a Subaru or Mazda. You're right though - the Cayman S is very quick - nearly 3 seconds quicker than a factory MCS. Completely agree with you tho that the JCW for all it's hype, heritage, extra touches, limited number production blah blah blah, really should be a car that shines not only in the Cooper line up, but really challenges the competition.

Maybe BMW thinks like Porsche with the Cayman S - if it really was released from the factory with its potential, the 911 might die off. Of course, they overlook that there are tons of people who prefer the look or the feel of the 911 and would care less if the lesser priced Cayman similarly performed. I don't envision too many people changing their minds about a zed 4 or m3 purchase just because the Cooper S or JCW suddenly has 280hp and can pull low 5 second 0-60 with nicely appointed interior features. Or geez, take a lesson from Lotus - make a version of the car that's bare bones and just screams. If you want extra interior crap, add it to the price.

 

I agree but would the car be that much less than a MINI, or would it have the handling of a MINI I sincerely doubt it.

 

I agree that BMW probably doesn't have to worry about Z4/M3 sales, no matter what they do to the MINI. But the 1-series might lose some of its luster if the MINI suddenly got a 25% horsepower bump without a significant price increase.

And I'm with you 100% about the Lotus. Hell, the current MINI power levels would even be more than adequate - just find a way to cut a few hundred pounds off of the curb weight. The option list on the MINI is already a mile long - just come out with a manual-everything, no-A/C, no-stereo version with less sound dampening. The club racers would love it, and it should knock quite a bit off of the price as well.

The earliest American muscle cars might not have been stellar except in a straight line, but the automakers had the right idea when they started throwing powerful engines into what had previously been bare-bones econoboxes.

 

Well, is the handling of the Mini really that spectacular? Certainly, it achieves a fairly neutral platform when the owner upgrades the suspension and swaybars. But, unlike a mid engine Boxster or Cayman with even weight distribution, what is it that Mini is supposedly doing to the car that makes it handle any more special than any other car with a "sport tuned" factory suspension.

I will admit, when I test drove my MCS (at time I owned an 05 330 zhp coupe) I was impressed by the sound of the supercharger and the feel that the car was quick and handled nimbly because of its smaller size, etc. The zhp car had certain M parts on it to make it a little nicer inside/out than the reg 325/330. It hurt to let it go. It handled delightfully! I always say that for a front wheel drive car, the MCS is pretty nice. For 6 months prior to owning the 330, I had an 05 Boxster. If you have not driven a Boxster or Cayman, I would recommend finding one that you can really test drive. Put that car into a 30 mph corner at 80 and you'll understand what handling is. You can probably even drink your tea while doing so.

Again, I just wonder if Dodge resurrected the GLH, would it be an "Auc Scheibe!" car? I imagine drivers who love the Mazda Miata debate and wonder similar things - damn it's a fun little car, but for crying out loud, couldn't Mazda make it quicker and a little more well appointed on the inside?!

 

That's true, but it's a shame to have to put that kind of qualification on it. The MINI does about as well as a FWD car can, but in factory trim it still understeers horribly. Sure, after lowering mine, putting on coilovers, camber plates, a bigger rear sway bar and corner-balancing the car, it handles beautifully, but it took a couple thousand dollars to get it there and the handling still isn't as neutral as something that has a better weight distribution and rear-wheel drive.

In the end (and I think this is the point you're driving at as well), I'd rather see the MINI occupy the lower end of the true "sports car" niche as opposed to what it is, which is a nicely-appointed, somewhat sporty economy car.

On a related note, I was heartbroken to find out that the upcoming two-seat MINI Roadster is going to be longer, wider and heavier than my R52. I'm not even sure if the Roadster will have the JCW engine as an option, although MINI may have finally decided to include it after originally announcing that only the Coupe would have the option of the JCW.

 

I could just imagine the waiting list to test drive something like that! No carpets, maybe just driver and passenger airbags (just enough to meet US safety requirements like the Lotus Elise). Perhaps with all the other weight savings, a semi roll cage (like the 911 GT3) in this version of the Mini!

 

 

Looking back at my posts, I think I should point out that I'm not complaining that BMW somehow "got it wrong" with the MINI. Considering the niche that the original Mini filled, the MINI is actually a pretty faithful modern re-imagining of the original. But the modern automotive industry has enough small, inexpensive sporty-ish economy cars now, and the MINI really doesn't stand out among them the way the original did in 1959.

The general buying public isn't going to accept 15-second 0-60 MPH times, or Yugo-level fit and finish, so I don't think a "race to the bottom" would be the right way for the MINI to distinguish itself. The looks and styling were fresh, new and "quirky" ten years ago, but BMW has been riding that pony for a long time. Now, the best way for the MINI to stand out again would be to turn it into a true pocket-rocket and compete on performance. And no, bumping the horsepower 20% over the 'S' and calling it a "JCW" isn't enough.