Actually I've read that when all that is factored in driving an H2 is actually "greener" than driving a Prius. I can't verify the truth of it though.

 

Earth can heal itself, but in what time-scale? And what of us? Fluctuations in climate can have very severe short and long-term impacts.

Keep in mind, too, that the "global warming" terminology has been dropped. "Climate change" has been adopted as it is more descriptive of the actual science.

In any case, I don't think you'll see any slow down in development of "greener" cars. Once policy swings into motion, then law is close behind, followed by regulation. Things in this regard will be changing a lot during our lifetimes and, in the end, it will be for the better.

There are extremists on both sides of the issue, but the best science out there comes from 2007's report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC). This is what is driving policy and strategy development at present. A more concise, less technical read is can be found at EPA's web site. EPA, remember, is an executive agency.

 

If anyone hasn't read both Crichton AND Al Gore's books with open minds, or if you haven't independently and objectively analyzed BOTH sides you're falling for rhetoric. Interestingly, Crichton's book (State of Fear) doesn't so much decry "global warming" so much as encourages people to analyze the facts, and no't blindly succumb to rhetoric.

Global energy use is a complex subject, as is the state of our environment. No one source is complete enough to put it, objectively, into a sound bite. Anyone who tries is supporting the terrorists. (OK, that last sentence wasn't totally true).

 

so that the effects of production (including indirect effects, like mine tailings or whatever), deliver, and dealing with end product as well, so that we can actually have something that approaches a true cost (econimic environmental or whatever).

Tons of the other stuff quoted here is just pure BS plain and simple. Methane is a naturally occuring byproduct, yet I wouldn't advocate an atomsphere of it. Arsnic is naturally occuring too, but I wouldn't eat too much.

Last thread I started on this got locked down pretty quick, and this one will too unless it gets back to is a Mini really a green car? The diesels have pretty low CO2/km (one of the lower out there) but that's not a US model.

Here's an interesting bit. There's a Subaru plant that has zero landfill footprint. 99% is recycled, and the remaining 1% is used to create electricity (I"d guess by using heat from an incinerator to create steam from a co-gen plant, but it's just a guess). And I'd guess that Subaru has found that the cost of operation is lower, as have most that have found a way to re-use waste have found there's money to be saved or earned from the process.

Matt

ps, the OP should say that it ranked number 8 on "a" not "the" greenest car list....

 

I thought I read somewhere that the MINI plant is pretty green unto itself.

 

Key word being "will". I also specifically mentioned first generation hydrogen powered cars, not that I am splitting hairs..

Yes, the gas rises, but I am specifically speaking of an accident that breaches the structural integrity of the car. An impact of that nature may/can cause the fuel cell to breach and cause an explosion....I am much less worried about a fire.

Contrary to Hollywoods belief, breaching a gas tank is normally not enough to cause an explosion.

I know it is not a perfect world. But I would not consider this a green idea until they can get the hydrogen production to a cost/energy effective level.


Someone mentioned the Cooper D. Does anyone have any idea the mileage rating on that diesel engine?

 

I personally dont think that hydrogen will ever be a viable source of fuel for cars, as Desert Sand said theres just too much volatility in the event of a crash or malfunction, and as i heard BMW say not too long ago "hydrogen technology is still at least 20 years away" which in my opinion will be too late to curb carbon emissions.
Has anyone seen the documentary "who killed the electric car?" very insighful documentary about how car companies work (or not) and how they get controlled by oil companies, to me electric is the way of the future, its just too bad that politics are not allowing it to flourish

 

cost of ownership is lower if there's less waste. But in Europe, the have regulations that require manufactures to supply or work with recycling channels that can deal with the shipped products material mix. This is an overall good thing that lobbiest fight tooth and nail here.

Matt

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wend/325226821/

Humans don't affect the environment

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87744743@N00/211081323/

This Global Warming thing is a lie

http://www.flickr.com/photos/crustmania/233523196/

Humans don't affect the environment

http://www.flickr.com/photos/elenase...7600933885626/

Global Warming is a scam

 

My meteorlolgist can't get the 3 day forecast correct, so I don't know what to make of the 100 year forecast.

What was the original topic? Oh yeah, #8 on the "green" list. If it makes you feel happier about driving a Mini that's great, but there is nothing scientific about these rankings. Rankings like this only really serve the marketing departments of the auto manufacturers.

I also happen to own a hybrid, and I am happy to say I don't feel any greener than all the #8's on this forum.

 

It's a ranking based on EPA figures, which are much more accurate than they used to be. So it's per average mile driven. Ignores the footprint of production or destruction.

Matt

 

Your right Matt, "nothing scientific" was a bit strong. EPA figures have improved in the past couple of years. Just pointing out that rankings can be limited in their scope and it's important to take a more comprehensive look at what is really being evaluated (ie How do we actually define "green"?).

BTW nice looking '65 Mustang.

 

Although this is an important subject, some comments are getting political, which is not allowed on NAM. If a new thread is started on the subject, please keep the politics out of the discussion.

Mark