seeya.

 

If you are driving any MINI at it's limit on a public road you are driving way too fast and are only a mistake away from a wreck. A 140 mph, my Porsche was not at it's limit on most roads, but way to fast for public roads. If you do run off the road by your self, not forced off, you are simply driving too fast for conditions, regardless of you speed. Going 20 mph when my ex spun her Corvette out was too fast for conditions.

Let's keep it on the track!

 

The mention of an animal in an early post reminds me of a scene I saw on Ortega Highway several years ago. A car swerved to avoid hitting a critter (a natural reaction), over corrected, and within seconds about 15 cars were piled up, a few people were dead, and several had to be airlifted to the hospital. This was not a run in which people were pushing their cars; it was a normal weekday with daily commuters, all of which knew the road well. The point is, it doesn't take much to turn a little fun into an absolute disaster. This is not a matter of personal choice that can only impact you - like the choice of whether or not to wear a helmet. To put yourself at risk is OK. But you don't live in a vacuum and you are putting everybody around you at risk when you push the envelope.

I am not a newbe to this and my opinion has been formed over time - I've been VERY active in the Mini scene since I bought my first Austin Mini in 1984 - 23 years ago! I've been on - and organized - dozens of runs and, yes, I have driven like an idiot at times. I thought it was fun and that I was in control at the time. But in retrospect, I know much better. There is no way to control the laws of circumstance and chance.

KEEP IT ON THE TRACK, GUYS AND GALS!

 

This is too EASY!
Interesting, greymatter (seems like an oxymoron in this case), that "crossing the double yellow line" happened to be on a tight corner that I had complete view of on coming traffic and there was none! You driving as close as you to me were probably did not have that viewpoint. As I also remember, you were tailgating fairly close and I pulled over at the stop sign- right turn to let you past because of your driving habits behind me and your apparent urgency to make your "movie" and be up with the lead group. Nice attempt at trying to discredit comments concerning overall safety on these mountain runs. I guess we can assume you have never crossed the "double yellow line barrier" in your life time of driving (I am guessing 4 years?) ???
Your experience in "driving these mtns" probably is not worth a whole lot to the guy who damaged his Mini but I am sure your condolences are real soothing especially when he gets his repair bill ! I am unaware of official club policy supporting your impression that damaging Minis is in essence "part of the game" when going on these runs, as you stated above " If you are worried about wrecking a car don't buy one. We all don't want our cars damaged in any way but face it accidents happen everywhere all the time. It doesn't matter if you are on a run with your club, going to work or getting your kids from school. Your car could get hit, you could crash.." Maybe we can put all the members who are willing to have a little damage run in your pack? So, greydude, you are missing the entire point, safety is the entire point! If you want to race and damage your Mini, get some track time. My job is fixing people who are involved in accidents, usually motorcycle and auto, and generally have more greymatter than you do. No one should come to a club event with an attitude that car damage is acceptable and that twisties are safe, but it is the responsiblilty of the club to ensure as much safety as possible, despite your premonition to speed through these SM Mtn twisties.

As for beating on Spike, you are way out of your league. Spike has been driving twisties before you were born! I would go on any run with Spike, and no run with you! Despite your Speilberg video set up, your acceptance of undue risk is probably the issue. If you feel that damaging your Mini is part of the dues to run on these mountains, run all you want, just stay away from the rest of us. Always nice to see an Einstein make a few comments and publish a short segment of a video on a tight corner with an "Experienced SM Mtns Mini Driver" taking the video. Bottom line is I let you pass at the stop sign, because I thought you were driving to close and were more concerned about your video than safety. I made the decision that continuing on the run was unsafe, which seems to have been to correct move. You can also put up the video at the point where you passed me, as I felt your driving was unsafe as well. Next time put an orange stripe on your Mini so we know to keep our distance! Oh, I forgot, we know you by your video cameras, duh. Have a nice day. Contact Huell Howser, maybe he needs a car mounted amateur videographer for one of his shows.

 

Quoted For Truth. Something for all organizers to take to heart.

 

Deleted.

 

Bottom lines:
> Whether you "choose to believe" that car had DSC or not is irrelevant, since technology won't save the un-save-able, and inadequate information is available to allow such judgement. The laws of physics still apply. To debate the relative merits of DSC, do a search, there are a LOT of rants out there, and actually some very useful information (information that changed my mind on DSC in some situations). View such information with an open mind, not one preconceived that any electronic nanny is either the best thing since sliced bread, or the spawn of Satan himself. Better, get to a track and push your own car with and without DSC, see what it'll do. It's an eye-opener, much more sothan watching those biased, improper-use-of-statistics videos. TEHO.
> Driving safely improves your chances, but there are no guarantees.
> Club run video or not, there are some rules that apply: Never cross a double yellow except in very extreme circumstances (canyon runs don't qualify), and oh yeah - that two second rule? It's "seconds", not "tenths of a second" (watch the club video and count "one-thousand-one... one-thousand-two..." you'll get to "one-th", but only if you speak REALLY fast.) You're both right and, well, both wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right (but three lefts sometimes do).

/rant

 

For those of you who have nothgin else to do but read this thread, link below has are "grey matter" finishing his Tuna Canyon run in the Cruise in discussion crossing the "Yellow Line" continously and crossing over to the opposite side shoulder and rolling stop signs. So I guess he was "caught by his own camera"!

Ah, video is such sweet enlightenment!

Nuff said. Point is safety and not how fast you can do these runs on a club cruise!@

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPuS6mLSmjk

High Moral Ground is always a good position Time to Move on.

 

This doesn't count because the road is "ONE WAY", there is no on coming traffic and we were told not to stop becaue there is no cross streets and it would cause everyone to slam on their brakes for no reason and may cause accidents. This road is one way down hill and no cross streets. The stop signs and double yellows are old road marks when the road used to be to lanes.
Mario

 

Deleted.

 

I had my DSC (I have track mode enabled, so by default it's off) turned ON for the ENTIRE run. I also had every one of my rally lights on, headlights, fog lights (Front and rear) and windows down so I could see through my tint. It's quite possible DSC may have saved the car, or made the accident's impact less, but it's also possible that it would have caused him to go another 10 feet down the road and off the side of the mountain.

Since John was the one driving, instead of posting stuff like this to 2 different forums, how about you leave the issue alone, and let people make decisions on their own. YOU decided to come, YOU decided to leave, leave it alone, stop posting and just end the thread. I don't get why people post crap like this... just to stir up drama .

Grey - I was happy to help, I'd rather make sure the member gets off on his way than go driving twisties... Thanks for the complements.

 

In regard to the Mike's original post in this thread, does anyone with lots of car club experience have suggestions for how to organize runs in a safe and orderly manner? How do other groups plan this type of event? Let's discuss that and avoid the personal comments.

Thanks.

 

DCMM does many runs. Maybe Edge can say how they do it.

In regards to comments like "you buy a MINI to drive fast" or whatever. What happened to "take it to the track?"

Its sounds, in general, there is a lot of dangerous driving being done here on PUBLIC roads. Until you actually seen a death scene with a body mangled because they "thought" they could handle the road ... maybe then you will think twice about driving unsafely on public property.

When I was a "kid", someone took there muscle car a tad to quick around "dead mans corner", yup a real dead mans corner, and ended up ... dead.

And then there was the guy driving a bit to fast down the "strip", stuck a young lady, and killed her ... very bad scene. I saw it. To bad to explain here, don't want anyone to toss their dinner.

Maybe you think you can handle it but a bit of oil on the road, a bit of loose gravel, a bit of a distraction, a bit of uncertainty by another driver ... and your dead.

Be safe and take it to the track. I find it sad when anyone in the MINI culture would rather risk the public safety when its very easy to go to track day these days.

 

+1 I believe that sums it up very well Chows.

 

Thank you.

I can add here I was driving once in the mountains in northwest Colorado, state road, nobody on the road, WITHIN the speed limit in a MR2 Turbo ... no guardrails, Granite wall on one side, 3000' drop on the other.

I did not see a little bit of gravel on the road ... within the speed limit and I knew VERY well how to handle a RWD, mid-engined car. The car totally lost traction, spun 360 then 180 and ended up pointed backwards TWO FEET from the edge of the cliff. I could barely get out of the driver car to see the damage (thankfully none).

Falling to a Fiery death 3000' feet below was very real and there was NO indication of loose gravel and I was WITHIN the speed limit on curving mountain road. Getting out to look, I saw the skid marks and very small loose gravel in a patch on the road.

One death flashing before your eyes experience like that you will quickly realize that life is just too short to mess around with because ... you just don't know what can be on the road.

 

Well it seems what i have written is being mis interpreted. Oh well, i have three things to say.

1) my tuna video IS NOT with any club. I was by myself and edited out the stops at the stop signs, its also a one way road which i sat at the top of for sometime to make sure it was clear of cars and bikes.
2) I DO NOT endorse driving fast, I just do. I think everyone should be as safe as possible at all times. I can also appologize to anyone who asks me to if they were offended by any of my driving at anytime they come across me.
3) Minisroc, I still don't like some of the comments you are making but enough is enough, I'm tired of acting like a child in front of everyone. You don't have all the facts about me(like my age) so lets be adults about this. This is my Formal Apology to you.I am sorry if you feel that I was tailgating you, for this I apologize. I hope you can be grown up about this and accept my apology.
MR. GREY MATTER

 

WOW! Where exactly is this road? I'm headed to Colorado in four weeks and would love to test the road you just described!

 

Clo, I'm the founder of the Sacramento Valley MG Car Club (1978), and have organized many tours. The rule of thumb is to never lose touch with the tail and of the train. In fact, thinking of it as a train is a good idea. Back then, we would have a couple of portable CB radios, one at the front, one at the back.

Now we have cell phones. The point was to stay in touch with the "sweep" car if there were too many cars in the tour to watch visually. Particularly if if a turn onto another road is involved, you make sure that everyone has made the turn. You drive a little ways, and pull over to wait for the rest of the train to catch up.

Now some might say, what's the point of finding this fun road to drive, if we have to pull over or wait for someone. Gee, I dunno.... SAFETY?

The idea is to pick a destination that everyone will arrive at. Twisties are always the best way to get there, but ultimately you want everyone to arrive at the destination safely.

Clo, I'll e-mail you what we once had as the Tours Guidelines.

 

Thanks, Jim. I think it would be a good idea to have a sticky somewhere with planning guidelines for club runs that folks can refer to for their events.

Whenever I've done runs, we use FRS radios, but when the number of cars gets over about 20, it's hard to keep everyone together, even with the radios in use.

 

We use FRS radios, as well as a very detailed itinerary of the run, including maps & sketches; on the Run Notes, I designate certain areas as "gathering points" where the whole group can get reconnected.

 

We started out in Ouray, headed north on US 550 to I70W to CO 129 N. It was somewhere on CO 129N between Loma and Rangely, more likely in the northern part of that bit of road. We spent in the night in Vernal, UT to see Dinosaur NM.

There were a few signs saying "Watch out for falling rock". This was in 1992. For all I know, they built up 4 lanes and strip malls on the road now ... but I doubt it.

 

Clover,Thanks for you partisiapation in this topic.
I think a sticky would be way cool.
Jim, Thanks for you input.
I started this thread with the pretence in reminding People To be careful on MINI runs and not to Exploit the crash with a MINI club!! Or bagging on the victim of the crash.This day of political correctness and Image sux!What ever to the word " politness"!! This last crash definitly but up a BIG RED FLAG to me where I thought the issue should be addressed.It seems some people would rather poo poo it off. Or are hard pressed to face reality. In this day of car comercials we see cars being promoted doing four wheel drifts on a dry lakes beds or 2 guys in there Corrolla leaning over cause of the g's getting on the freeway. These things instigate spirited driving on puplic roads ! Which is not good. I guess I'll take a bus.Can you imagine a bus on a twisty run? He,he!! No apologies here.
My suggestion for safe guidelines would be to scrap the division of a fast group and slow group and have one average group with the slow more cautous drivers toward the rear.Along with a leader that is driving regularly cautous.It might be boring to sum,but it would be safer..
Thanks again-Mike

 

I've read the first and last pages of posts in this thread and I think I can guess pretty closely what's in between. My comment is in regards to individual runs of twisty roads we've heard/read about. I travelled to the triple nickel in Ohio a while back, and more recently followed a friend's directions to a shorter version much closer to home. The thing I find remarkable about these roads is how utterly unsafe it would be to try to 'make the best time' or 'go as fast as my little car can corner'. There are literally houses and driveways every few hundred feet, and always the risk of a farmer pulling some implement at 5 mph! I admit I have tried to push the envelope a few times, but felt really foolish doing this. I agree with the post that finding new roads is more for the fun of being alive and being out in a sweet car with my sweetie! Guess that's just my age talking, but then I didn't get to be sixty by being stupid all the time!

 

Let's face it - there are a percentage of Mini drivers who like the handling of the car, and who have above-average driving skill. Great! Enjoy, but safely.

I'm going to bring up the club ride topic at our next Mini club meeting and come up with some of the guidelines we use during club rides. There are things the organizers can do that both increase safety and decrease club (and individual) liability during such rides. Can people still get hurt, and can they still sue you (individually or as a club)? Certainly - but there are things to do that minimize the risks.

Will report...

 

Dixon-

SCMM came up with club run guidelines: "Run Etiquette" and also "Twisty Driving Tips". I would be happy to share them with you and even go over our run protocols on how we are making our runs safer and more enjoyable.

Please PM me if you would like further information. Our club would be happy to help another club out.

Lex