2009 Formula 1 discussion
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
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From: Central Illinois
Damn Kurv, you are fast. Congrats to Fisi. Hopefully he's able to do well for the Red Team. At Spa, he was driving the way he used to in his younger days. I think now that he finally got his chance, that he would continue this form. But still, getting accustomed to a completely foreign car in one week and being somewhat on the pace? That is one hefty task.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
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From: Hot Springs Village, AR
Yup, he made the big time--for this year and next:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/030920...s-ferrari.html
I wonder if they'll change the no-test rule:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/030920...nza-shake.html
I think it's really a bad idea, as Badoer has shown.
And for more shakeups:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/020920...raikkonen.html
As for Michael--a third Ferrari?
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/300820...next-year.html
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/030920...s-ferrari.html
I wonder if they'll change the no-test rule:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/030920...nza-shake.html
I think it's really a bad idea, as Badoer has shown.
And for more shakeups:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/020920...raikkonen.html
As for Michael--a third Ferrari?
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/300820...next-year.html
That third car idea is starting to look almost like a necessity for Ferrari. Unless things change it looks like they'll have Massa, Raikkonen and Alonso. If they want Shumacher to drive they'll need four cars! Or maybe they'll take turns. 
Then they could maybe even let Fisi take a turn now and again as well.
It's sounding more and more like the Alonso rumors are true, esp now that the rumors about Renault courting Raikkonen are growing stronger. The silly season is even sillier than usual this year isn't it? Let's see.....McLaren might drop Kovalainen, Ferrari is a circus, BMW/Sauber may be out all together so their drivers aren't sure what to do, Toyota's drivers are worried the same may happen to them, Rosberg seems to be looking for a new ride, looks like Renault may need to replace Fred, ETC, then there are all the new teams, including one or two who haven't even been picked/named yet!
Never mind all that, I just hope Mallya ends up with someone who can drive the Force India well starting at Monza. I really enjoyed watching Fisi push Kimi last weekend and was looking forward to more from them. Odds are though it will be Liuzzi. They apparently don't have the strongest record for paying bills (money troubles?) and Liuzzi's already on the payroll.
Then they could maybe even let Fisi take a turn now and again as well. It's sounding more and more like the Alonso rumors are true, esp now that the rumors about Renault courting Raikkonen are growing stronger. The silly season is even sillier than usual this year isn't it? Let's see.....McLaren might drop Kovalainen, Ferrari is a circus, BMW/Sauber may be out all together so their drivers aren't sure what to do, Toyota's drivers are worried the same may happen to them, Rosberg seems to be looking for a new ride, looks like Renault may need to replace Fred, ETC, then there are all the new teams, including one or two who haven't even been picked/named yet!
Never mind all that, I just hope Mallya ends up with someone who can drive the Force India well starting at Monza. I really enjoyed watching Fisi push Kimi last weekend and was looking forward to more from them. Odds are though it will be Liuzzi. They apparently don't have the strongest record for paying bills (money troubles?) and Liuzzi's already on the payroll.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
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From: Hot Springs Village, AR
That third car idea is starting to look almost like a necessity for Ferrari. Unless things change it looks like they'll have Massa, Raikkonen and Alonso. If they want Shumacher to drive they'll need four cars! Or maybe they'll take turns. Then they could maybe even let Fisi take a turn now and again as well.
Then they could maybe even let Fisi take a turn now and again as well. Perhaps the past couple of years have tempered his temper.
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
It's sounding more and more like the Alonso rumors are true, esp now that the rumors about Renault courting Raikkonen are growing stronger. The silly season is even sillier than usual this year isn't it? Let's see.....McLaren might drop Kovalainen, Ferrari is a circus, BMW/Sauber may be out all together so their drivers aren't sure what to do, Toyota's drivers are worried the same may happen to them, Rosberg seems to be looking for a new ride, looks like Renault may need to replace Fred, ETC, then there are all the new teams, including one or two who haven't even been picked/named yet!
Well, with McMerc courting Rosberg, Heikki under-performing, Toyota not doing any favours in terms of performance and Sir Frank being the shrewd businessman that he is....I'm predicting a trade of Rosberg for Ilmor power plants....as well as possibly Heikki driving the Williams.
I think Alonso is absolutely going to Ferrari. No question about it. Ferrari played the same game when they went after Kimi. I think Fred will be like a duck in water with the Red Team.
I don't really see Kubica staying with BMW or whoever they end up being. especially not after this year. I see him going to Fred's empty seat at Renault since he was previously in the Renault driver development program.
I think Raikkonnen is out. I believe he's performing well so he can get out of his contract and go rallying.
Toyota.....ummmmm, yeah. So you've gone this far without results....why not just give it another year, since costs are going down anyway?
New teams - ahem, wow. Monaco is going to be crowded with that many backmarkers on track at the same time.
Last edited by benjam83; Sep 8, 2009 at 12:56 PM.
Well, with McMerc courting Rosberg, Heikki under-performing, Toyota not doing any favours in terms of performance and Sir Frank being the shrewd businessman that he is....I'm predicting a trade of Rosberg for Ilmor power plants....as well as possibly Heikki driving the Williams.
"McLaren
The prospect of Kimi Raikkonen returning to McLaren seems to be one of the more plausible outcomes of the driver market. Many people at McLaren still love Raikkonen; in many ways he's the perfect McLaren driver.
For a team that grounds their engineering in pure mathematics and physics, to have an unemotional, repetitive - almost robotic - driver in the car is much easier than having a man who is inconsistent and variable. You'll never be able to prove anything with an inconsistent driver, because you'll never know if what you're changing on the car is working.
McLaren engineers still talk with wonder about Raikkonen's consistent lap times. He was so good, they say, because he would come back to the pits, say what was wrong, they would fix it and he would go out and go faster. Simple.
Team boss Martin Whitmarsh, who values his engineers' opinions highly, wouldn't rule out employing Raikkonen again when asked on Saturday afternoon. He also said the team wanted to employ the two best drivers they could, despite the problems they had with Hamilton and Alonso two years ago.
Raikkonen only left McLaren because his relationship with then-team boss Ron Dennis deteriorated when he signed Fernando Alonso. Is history repeating itself at Ferrari?
How Lewis Hamilton would feel about having Raikkonen in the other McLaren is another matter.
As a matter of interest, in the McLaren post-race press release, every quote - with the exception of Hamilton's - praises Kimi for his win.
Given that most McLaren people would rather undergo root canal surgery than publicly praise Ferrari, one can't help thinking there's a bit of 'preparing the ground' going on here."
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
Oh snap!
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...09162021.shtml
Rosberg to Brawn??? Awwwwe, the silliness!!!
I'd be ok with a Lewis v. Kimi head to head battle at Mclaren.
Deb, Why wouldn't Ferrari suit Alonso? All they want him to do is drive. They don't care as much about all the other crap. Look how much less bitching you hear from them about Kimi than you did from Ron. I think Ron was a difficult guy to work for, that's why I think his drivers tended to rebell a little. See vehiclar assaults between Senna and Prost. Or the tennis "accident" with JPM. Or all the partying from Kimi. Or all the shaggy hair from Alonso. Whereas with Ferrari, it seems like if you just do the business and don't do anything to hurt the brand, they'll take care of you. They even let Kimi go rallying....and crash.........both times.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track. Look at how much they like Massa. Look how much they loved Michael...it didn't get much more passionate and hot-blooded than that. The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol. Seriously....Deb, seriously..........really?
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...09162021.shtml
Rosberg to Brawn??? Awwwwe, the silliness!!!
I'd be ok with a Lewis v. Kimi head to head battle at Mclaren.
Deb, Why wouldn't Ferrari suit Alonso? All they want him to do is drive. They don't care as much about all the other crap. Look how much less bitching you hear from them about Kimi than you did from Ron. I think Ron was a difficult guy to work for, that's why I think his drivers tended to rebell a little. See vehiclar assaults between Senna and Prost. Or the tennis "accident" with JPM. Or all the partying from Kimi. Or all the shaggy hair from Alonso. Whereas with Ferrari, it seems like if you just do the business and don't do anything to hurt the brand, they'll take care of you. They even let Kimi go rallying....and crash.........both times.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track. Look at how much they like Massa. Look how much they loved Michael...it didn't get much more passionate and hot-blooded than that. The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol. Seriously....Deb, seriously..........really?
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
Likes: 5
From: Hot Springs Village, AR
Oh snap!
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...09162021.shtml Deb, Why wouldn't Ferrari suit Alonso? All they want him to do is drive. They don't care as much about all the other crap. Look how much less bitching you hear from them about Kimi than you did from Ron. I think Ron was a difficult guy to work for, that's why I think his drivers tended to rebell a little. See vehiclar assaults between Senna and Prost. Or the tennis "accident" with JPM. Or all the partying from Kimi. Or all the shaggy hair from Alonso. Whereas with Ferrari, it seems like if you just do the business and don't do anything to hurt the brand, they'll take care of you. They even let Kimi go rallying....and crash.........both times.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track. Look at how much they like Massa. Look how much they loved Michael...it didn't get much more passionate and hot-blooded than that. The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol. Seriously....Deb, seriously..........really?
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...09162021.shtml Deb, Why wouldn't Ferrari suit Alonso? All they want him to do is drive. They don't care as much about all the other crap. Look how much less bitching you hear from them about Kimi than you did from Ron. I think Ron was a difficult guy to work for, that's why I think his drivers tended to rebell a little. See vehiclar assaults between Senna and Prost. Or the tennis "accident" with JPM. Or all the partying from Kimi. Or all the shaggy hair from Alonso. Whereas with Ferrari, it seems like if you just do the business and don't do anything to hurt the brand, they'll take care of you. They even let Kimi go rallying....and crash.........both times.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track. Look at how much they like Massa. Look how much they loved Michael...it didn't get much more passionate and hot-blooded than that. The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol. Seriously....Deb, seriously..........really?
If Massa doesn't come back, then I see no problems with an Alonso/Fisichella team, but that still leaves Michael as a wild card. I don't see Kimi as a threat; I really don't see him in the picture at all.
Interesting bit on Force India:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/090920...dhok-snub.html
Looks like the Mercedes-Brawn thing is a done deal:
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/090920...rawn-deal.html
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
I think with a team like Ferrari, they'll be able to keep any inter-garage bickering under wraps. Besides, as I understand it, Massa and Alonso are pretty good friends, despite their public blowup after the race when Alonso was still in the McMerc and Massa hit him as they were going through a chicane side by side.
That was a great last couple of laps in that race, BTW!
That was a great last couple of laps in that race, BTW!
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,248
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From: USA - Illinois
I've been following this discussion with great interest and if I may, I'd love to jump in and offer my $.02 ...
I agree ben that these are all valid points you make and I think that Alonso would love to drive one of the red cars. Acceptance by the Tifosi comes with time and a driver's performance on the track. It is true that the Tifosi love drivers that can make the red cars perform or wrangle the most performance out of the package and make the car look good and score points... Look at their adoration of drivers like Mansell (The Lion of Maranello) or the legendary Gilles Villenueve. Alonso is in this category. Like him or not he does produce and he does drive with passion.
I also agree with you Deb in that Ferrari is a two car team. They do have a bit of a quandry in that they have these four talented gentlemen queing up for a seat with the Scuderia. Ferrari, in the past, has loved to play the game of pitting one driver against another so a pairing of say Alonso/Massa or Alonso/Schumacher is not out of the question. The problem here is one of battling egos. Michael is used to being #1 and having the team built around him. Alonso is also the same (which is why his tenure at McLaren was so fraught with tension and angst). What will decide this is Ferrari's deals/promises/signed agreements. It seems to me that the Scuderia has tried to CYA (cover your A$$) themselves to be ready for any eventuality and perhaps may have over-extended themselves by making too many deals for drivers.
I'm not so sure ben that this may be the case as Alonso can be vocal at times. Just recall the situation at McLaren and his attitude towards his team and teammate, one Lewis Hamilton...
... Deb, Why wouldn't Ferrari suit Alonso? All they want him to do is drive. They don't care as much about all the other crap... Whereas with Ferrari, it seems like if you just do the business and don't do anything to hurt the brand, they'll take care of you.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track... The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol.
Alonso already speaks Italian. He'll do whatever it takes to win...I think that's the Ferrari creed. The Tifosi will love his passionate, hot-blooded nature on the track... The whole Latin aspect helps. He's like a cousin to them, lol.
My feeling, based on what's happened at both McLaren AND Renault, is that he won't take a second string position--not even a 50/50 pairing. Ferrari is absolutely a 1-2 team, and where would that put Massa? Or Schumacher if he comes back in a 3rd car, as has been rumored.
If Massa doesn't come back, then I see no problems with an Alonso/Fisichella team, but that still leaves Michael as a wild card.
If Massa doesn't come back, then I see no problems with an Alonso/Fisichella team, but that still leaves Michael as a wild card.
I'm not so sure ben that this may be the case as Alonso can be vocal at times. Just recall the situation at McLaren and his attitude towards his team and teammate, one Lewis Hamilton...
Last edited by Sabre; Sep 13, 2009 at 09:21 AM. Reason: fixed coding on 3rd quote
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Hot Springs Village, AR
But, as I say, he might have matured in the last couple of years.
Big scandal news - Piquet points the finger big time!
Nelson Piquet's FIA statement revealed
Claims Symonds and Briatore asked him to crash his Renault and then told him exactly when and where to do it.
Nelson Piquet's FIA statement revealed
Claims Symonds and Briatore asked him to crash his Renault and then told him exactly when and where to do it.
Yep, and for F1 in general as well as Renault specifically, but I have to wonder.....is it true or is he running on revenge? Methinks they'll have a hard time finding any tangible evidence.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,248
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From: USA - Illinois
Harmony between personnel is one of the main factors that can lead a team to a world championship and consequently the lack of it can literally demolish any team's hopes of winning a championship!
My hope is that Fernando has matured and is now better able to control his latin temper... Time will tell.
It's back! Did you notice? Almost 2 1/2 minutes of it from Monza.
I figured they dropped it because it wasn't all that popular, but maybe I was wrong.....Varsha said "It's time to bring back everybody's favorite segment The Sounds of Speed!"
I figured they dropped it because it wasn't all that popular, but maybe I was wrong.....Varsha said "It's time to bring back everybody's favorite segment The Sounds of Speed!"
4th Gear
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
It's hard to believe that any team would put up with that kind of shenanigan. I think that this was one of the contributing factors that led to Alonso's departure.
Harmony between personnel is one of the main factors that can lead a team to a world championship and consequently the lack of it can literally demolish any team's hopes of winning a championship!
My hope is that Fernando has matured and is now better able to control his latin temper... Time will tell.
Harmony between personnel is one of the main factors that can lead a team to a world championship and consequently the lack of it can literally demolish any team's hopes of winning a championship!
My hope is that Fernando has matured and is now better able to control his latin temper... Time will tell.
Off the top of my head, I'm having a hard time coming up with a good inter-garage battle of egos at Ferrari. Yeah, Rubens had to let Michael win a couple times, but there wasn't a huge blowup. And I don't think Kimi just stopped having fun when he went to Marenello. They just seem to keep that stuff under wraps and do the business of racing.
Last edited by benjam83; Sep 14, 2009 at 10:38 AM.
4th Gear
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Posts: 384
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From: Central Illinois
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...16164243.shtml
Wow, I'm not sure what to read into that. If Renault just washed their hands of them so they didn't bring the whole ship down, or if they got out so they could come back after things calmed down....kind of like how Nigel Stepney was welcomed back by the FIA.
I like Renault, and I like Briatore because he's a character and always has something to say. But I do kind of get the Italian Maffia, "I can get away with anything", attitude from him.
Wow, I'm not sure what to read into that. If Renault just washed their hands of them so they didn't bring the whole ship down, or if they got out so they could come back after things calmed down....kind of like how Nigel Stepney was welcomed back by the FIA.
I like Renault, and I like Briatore because he's a character and always has something to say. But I do kind of get the Italian Maffia, "I can get away with anything", attitude from him.
I'm betting Renault gave them one of those "if you don't want to be fired, you need to resign right now!" ultimatums. I wonder though how much Renault knew and how soon they learned of it. There's more to come of course and I'm sure that, and all sorts of other questions of complicity, will factor heavily into the outcome.
Last edited by kurvhugr; Sep 17, 2009 at 09:42 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,743
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From: Hot Springs Village, AR
I expected the spit to hit the fan when I read the transcript of Symonds' interview with the FIA:
FIA adviser: In your own words Mr. Symonds what do you recall being said to Nelson Piquet Jnr at that meeting? This is shortly before the race.
Symonds: I don't really remember it.
FIA adviser: You don't remember?
Symonds: No.
FIA adviser: Nelson Piquet Jnr says that he was asked by you to cause a deliberate crash. Is that true?
Symonds: Nelson had spoken to me the day before and suggested that. That's all I'd really like to say.
(...)
FIA adviser: Mr Symonds were you aware that there was going to be crash at Lap 14?
Symonds: I don't want to answer that question.
(...)
FIA adviser: There is just one thing that I ought to ask you and put it to you so you can think about it at least. Mr. Piquet Jnr says that having had the initial meeting with you and Flavio Briatore you then met him individually with the map of the circuit. Do you remember that?
Symonds: I won't answer, rather not answer that. I don't recall it but it sounds like Nelson's talked a lot more about it.
FIA adviser: Mr. Piquet Jnr also says at that meeting you pointed out a specific place on the circuit where he was to have the accident and said it was because it was the furthest away from any of the safety or lifting equipment and gave the most likely chance of a safety car being deployed.
Symonds: I don't, I don't want to answer that question.
FIA adviser: [Referring to the pre-race meeting] Was it you that did the talking at that meeting Mr. Symonds?
Symonds: I'm sure it would have been both of us but I don't know for sure. Sorry that's a contradiction. I would imagine it would be both of us that would be normal. Actually probably more often it's Flavio that does the talking himself. I wouldn't necessarily always agree with what he's saying but the majority.
FIA adviser: Because just to be absolutely clear here what Nelson Piquet Jnr has said is that at that meeting it was you that asked him to have a crash deliberately?
Symonds: I can't answer you.
FIA adviser: Can I say that if Mr. Symonds you'd been put in the position where you were made to ask Mr. Piquet Jnr to crash it's much better, it would be much better for you in the long term to tell these stewards to hear that today?
Symonds: I fully understand that.
FIA adviser: Yes.
Symonds: I have no intention of lying to you. I have not lied to you but I have reserved my position just a little.
FIA adviser: And you're aware that the stewards may draw conclusions from your unwillingness to assist them in relation to what went on in that meeting?
Symonds: I would expect them to. I would absolutely expect that.
FIA adviser: I think I haven't got any further questions.
Symonds: I don't really remember it.
FIA adviser: You don't remember?
Symonds: No.
FIA adviser: Nelson Piquet Jnr says that he was asked by you to cause a deliberate crash. Is that true?
Symonds: Nelson had spoken to me the day before and suggested that. That's all I'd really like to say.
(...)
FIA adviser: Mr Symonds were you aware that there was going to be crash at Lap 14?
Symonds: I don't want to answer that question.
(...)
FIA adviser: There is just one thing that I ought to ask you and put it to you so you can think about it at least. Mr. Piquet Jnr says that having had the initial meeting with you and Flavio Briatore you then met him individually with the map of the circuit. Do you remember that?
Symonds: I won't answer, rather not answer that. I don't recall it but it sounds like Nelson's talked a lot more about it.
FIA adviser: Mr. Piquet Jnr also says at that meeting you pointed out a specific place on the circuit where he was to have the accident and said it was because it was the furthest away from any of the safety or lifting equipment and gave the most likely chance of a safety car being deployed.
Symonds: I don't, I don't want to answer that question.
FIA adviser: [Referring to the pre-race meeting] Was it you that did the talking at that meeting Mr. Symonds?
Symonds: I'm sure it would have been both of us but I don't know for sure. Sorry that's a contradiction. I would imagine it would be both of us that would be normal. Actually probably more often it's Flavio that does the talking himself. I wouldn't necessarily always agree with what he's saying but the majority.
FIA adviser: Because just to be absolutely clear here what Nelson Piquet Jnr has said is that at that meeting it was you that asked him to have a crash deliberately?
Symonds: I can't answer you.
FIA adviser: Can I say that if Mr. Symonds you'd been put in the position where you were made to ask Mr. Piquet Jnr to crash it's much better, it would be much better for you in the long term to tell these stewards to hear that today?
Symonds: I fully understand that.
FIA adviser: Yes.
Symonds: I have no intention of lying to you. I have not lied to you but I have reserved my position just a little.
FIA adviser: And you're aware that the stewards may draw conclusions from your unwillingness to assist them in relation to what went on in that meeting?
Symonds: I would expect them to. I would absolutely expect that.
FIA adviser: I think I haven't got any further questions.
