Yep, for relaxed daily driving the pulley is the bang for the buck. But I'll tell you it is a hoot to go all the way to redline in first and second with the ECU :smile: I do this several times a day so the ECU is worth it for me. With the pulley and ECU, the MCS moves into the high performance car category. I also drive the car at the local track and it will really shine there.

Forget "Motor On"... "Race On"

 

Well my first chance to put my 2 cents in and its 700$ worth. The mod is up there in price but gives you across the board more power. The # I will not guess but it is there, the nice part is its not loud its not big or heavy and its there and the extra rpms are great. I have not yet put on the pulley so the full gain is still to be seen. Spend the $ there and fab your own exhaust. Some times you just have to spend the $.

_________________

 

Sleepless,

Thanks for the graphs. Had scheduled the pulley for July, and was debating about the ECU. NO DOUBTS NOW!

Thanks again for posting the graphs

 

>>Great graphs!
>>I'm getting the pully done tomorrow and this makes me comfortable stopping there rather than also doing the ECU. Below 5000rpm the pully does twice as much as the ECU for only just over half the price. Above 5000rpm the pully and ECU give similar increases. It shows the pully to be a great deal for the cost concious owner who wants power for regular driving.>>>>>>>>


But from 2500 RPMs up there is a significant & steady increase in torque with the ECU.

 

All this power and torque just for the asking. Well, for the asking and $1100, but still... And to think Randy will be making a road trip to Cincinnati next month to install said items.

I'll tell you, it makes waiting out the warranty period even tougher. Oh the temptation. :smile:

 

I was the first on Friday at the "Florida Pully Party". First, let me say a massive thanks to "our Randy", then Helmut, Bob, Mike and the crew at Renntech. Also to the other MCO members who were pacing like expectant fathers as Randy worked his magic. What a great group. Many stories from all.

I did the BMP intake a week ago with 3 holes in "the box". No worries about drilling through brake lines - good air. The filter and box provided results I think I could feel. On Friday Randy did his thing. Now I have results I know I can Feel. The pully and ECU bring our cars to life starting about 3000 rpm (where there was previously little sign of life). The sound and action in the 6800 - 7200 range are really worth the money. The car feels much more like my E36 M3 with similar mods. Not exactly, but clearly a similar feeling once you get above 3000 RPM.

I have 4500 miles on my car. Forget the warranty, don't worry, be happy. just do it! :smile:

 

>>I was the first on Friday at the "Florida Pully Party". First, let me say a massive thanks to "our Randy", then Helmut, Bob, Mike and the crew at Renntech. Also to the other MCO members who were pacing like expectant fathers as Randy worked his magic. What a great group. Many stories from all.
>>
>>I did the BMP intake a week ago with 3 holes in "the box". No worries about drilling through brake lines - good air. The filter and box provided results I think I could feel. On Friday Randy did his thing. Now I have results I know I can Feel. The pully and ECU bring our cars to life starting about 3000 rpm (where there was previously little sign of life). The sound and action in the 6800 - 7200 range are really worth the money. The car feels much more like my E36 M3 with similar mods. Not exactly, but clearly a similar feeling once you get above 3000 RPM.
>>
>>I have 4500 miles on my car. Forget the warranty, don't worry, be happy. just do it! :smile:

By the way, with the above modifications my Renntech Dyno numbers (thanks Steve) showed Torque at 159.9 and HP at 172.9.

 

Sleepless,

Great posts and graphs!

Sleepless wrote:Interesting to note that (as many others have recorded) the a/f mixture is richer than the dyno's are set up to display! With just the pulley, the mixture is similar to the stock mixture (a bit richer) at low/mid range, but whereas the pulley mixture comes back up to measurable range at high rpm, the stock mixture is under 9.6:1 from 5k on up. Looks like with the chip, mixture is consistently leaned out (probably a shft across the entire injector pulse width map.

 

>>Interesting to note that (as many others have recorded) the a/f mixture is richer than the dyno's are set up to display! With just the pulley, the mixture is similar to the stock mixture (a bit richer) at low/mid range, but whereas the pulley mixture comes back up to measurable range at high rpm, the stock mixture is under 9.6:1 from 5k on up. Looks like with the chip, mixture is consistently leaned out (probably a shft across the entire injector pulse width map.


Why should the pulley affect the A/F mixture at WOT? I thought this was a preprogramed curve that is independant of all sensor inputs. Could the computer be monitoring boost levels at WOT and matching an programmed A/F curve based on boost pressure?

If all we want to do is shift the entire curve upwards couldn't we add an adjustable pressure valve to the tap where the computer is getting its boost reading from and carefully "fool" it into leaning out the mixture pro rata over the preprogrammed curve?

 

Well Randy i found my culprit on the belt issue, my tensioner broke into two peices, so therefore as i said before im pretty sure the pulley was lined up correctly, now what caused the tensioner to break your guess is as good as mine, still curious if i was having some slippage on the dyno runs at renntech, but there is no telling, i dont get the wavyness of the dyno graph at the top of the rpm band i didnt have it before, and not that drastic, so after i put the car back to gether and call mini roadside, to get the tensioner replaced under warranty ill let you how the dyno run here goes... btw as far as the ecu goes i think we were right in that the best results arent measure right after the flash is done, the 6hp and 6ftlbs, wasnt to impressive, but after driving to the car show in ft lauderdale, it seemed to get alot spunkier on the way out of town, so anyone who gets the ecu upgrade i would recommend driving 50 miles or so, before dynoing, once again ill be redynoing my car here once its fixed to see the changes, but i am quite sure we got more than 6hp and 6ftlbs, that we first dynoed, by the way as far as our top speed conversation, i hit 147-148 on the way home so i do think the power is there as far as the ecu uopgrade is concerned, just takes the ecu a little learning with the flash to get it Thanks again, and i will be calling you on monday

 

BlueMCS wrote:

The fuel pressure regulator is located in the return line to the fuel tank. The more restriction in the regulator, the more pressure in the fuel going to the injectors. The fuel pressure regulator has a vacuum line running to the intake manifold. As manifold pressure increases, so does restriction in the fuel pressure regulator.

So, it is completely possible that the engine is mechanically adjusting for the increased boost simply through increased fuel pressure. I haven't yet logged injector pulse widths to tell for sure though.

 

Why does the engine run itself SO rich?
If 14.7:1 is ideal, what's the point of running it dramatically deviant from that?

simple question, complex answer?

 

Actually, stoichiometric is about 14.7:1. That doesn't make the most power though. According to Bosch (who literally wrote the book on engine management) maximum power is generated when the a/f is between 12.5 and 14.0:1. Now, there are good reasons to run outside this range, notably to prevent detonation (pre-ignition). Using a little excess fuel helps to reduce cylinder temperatures and avoids the power-robbing ignition timing reduction that happens when the engine management detects detonation. Another way to reduce detonation is to use a low compression ratio, and the MCS engine is a low 8.5:1. All that said, the MCS runs richer than any other modern production car I have ever heard of. My VW GTI 1.8T had a higher compression ratio and ran more boost (modded), yet didn't run nearly as rich. I suspect that Siemens does not understand forced induction engine management as well as Bosch does. That's just a theory, so take it as my $0.02.

 

I've heard it has to do with the majority of the software engineers quitting prior to the project's completion and the ECU was never fully tweaked.... thats why everyone had that crappy cold start problem early on.

--
Cheese

 

thanks for the insight Andy. I've seen a few different graphs of stock-ECU MINI's with varying A/F curves. The graph in this thread is the most rich I've seen, whereas others have been more in the 11.0 to 13.0 range.

does the MINI engine prefer to be run rich (beyond your 12.5-14.0 envelope of "normal&quot? If this is the case, I understand why aftermarket ECU's don't change the A/F ratio much. But if the stock ECU is seemlingly wasting fuel, why don't aftermarket ECU's compensate to be within that 12.5-14.0 envelope?

<---is not an engine manangement guru at all, just throwing out ideas
TIA!
Cheers,
Ryan

 

>>So, it is completely possible that the engine is mechanically adjusting for the increased boost simply through increased fuel pressure. I haven't yet logged injector pulse widths to tell for sure though.

Ahhh, so the two variables are pulse width AND fuel pressure. It would be VERY interesting to see the graphs of those two over the last half of the rpm range.

My old grey market 350SLC had an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Had to tweak it a bit as I had an intermittant lean condition.

Why would they try to control two variables instead of just keeping fuel pressure a constant and varying pulse width? Unless, the fuel pressure component is just there for the fuel dumping part of the equation?

 

probably need to extend the fuel delivery range more than the injector pulse alone can handle while still retaining low and top end headroom and control.

 

>>probably need to extend the fuel delivery range more than the injector pulse alone can handle while still retaining low and top end headroom and control.

The fuel pressure is controlled mechanically via a boost controlled pressure regulator while the pulse is controlled electronically. If sensors are locked out at WOT then the system controlling headroom is outside the feedback loop. How does it know?

I doubt they would design a system that needed this headroom in situations significantly less then high rpm/WOT/failsafe conditions. Not very elegant and difficult to control.

 

how about... smaller injectors? Seems backwards but it should work.

--
Cheese

 

How about disconnect (plug) the boost line to the fuel pressure regulator and then closely monitor/plot the A/F ratio and see what happens to the curve. It may lean out the entire A/F curve OR it might only lean out the high boost portion which is exactly what the ECU flash does (among other things).

It may lean it out too much. I can't yet monitor this...but Andy can!!! :smile:

 

my understanding:
in order to deliver enough fuel at WOT and full boost, you need higher fuel pressure and a workable max injector pulse rate for a given cc/pulse/psi injector size. running open loop, the pulse rate is wet from the lookup table, and the boost will affect the resulting fuel pressure, sot there is one dynamic variable.

At lesser throttle openings, the sensors can contribute enough data to cut back the pulse rate, but subject to the minium practical flow rate of the injector.

If you try to run at idle or even cruise speed, the cc/pulse is too high for that same injector unless the psi is lowered.
some high performance engines use dual injectors to ge around this problem.

 

John,
Yeap you're right.... so the computer can compensate for a smaller injector at all partial throttle openings, but when WOT hits, it has no idea there is a smaller injector there... so you'd get less fuel.

another option is



http://www.cartech.net/fmu2020.htm

 

>>my understanding:
>>in order to deliver enough fuel at WOT and full boost, you need higher fuel pressure and a workable max injector pulse rate for a given cc/pulse/psi injector size. running open loop, the pulse rate is wet from the lookup table, and the boost will affect the resulting fuel pressure, sot there is one dynamic variable.
>>
>>At lesser throttle openings, the sensors can contribute enough data to cut back the pulse rate, but subject to the minium practical flow rate of the injector.
>>
>>If you try to run at idle or even cruise speed, the cc/pulse is too high for that same injector unless the psi is lowered.
>>some high performance engines use dual injectors to ge around this problem.

John - I think you are absolutely right. The system is uncontrollable unless it effectively operates like a switch at boost/RPM levels such that the excess fuel will never be a problem. If its "ON" at lets say 12psi (=about 5,000rpm on pully'd car) and the WOT curve assumes this will happen, there is only one variable and its controllable.

Its analogous to the secondaries opening in a 4 barrel or a second set of injectors coming on line, except here the fuel is only being used as a cooling agent?

Its also safe to assume that as this is a high stress/failsafe system that is was designed to be safe even in the event of a failure of the fuel pressure regulator. If not the failure of this component would create a lot of holed pistons.

Boost AND A/F gauges ordered last night. If I don't trash this engine I will be surprised. But if I do there's always the stroker kit!!!
:smile:

 

Of course I read this AFTER having the pully done by Randy, but on (the mostly UK site) MINI2.com there was a post that said doing the pulley without doing the ECU could cause damage to the engine. It wasn't specific on why. Is this claim right? Would the cause be because of the rich mixture? I know a rich mixture can damage the cat converter, but the engine?

 

>>Of course I read this AFTER having the pully done by Randy, but on (the mostly UK site) MINI2.com there was a post that said doing the pulley without doing the ECU could cause damage to the engine. It wasn't specific on why. Is this claim right? Would the cause be because of the rich mixture? I know a rich mixture can damage the cat converter, but the engine?

Change your oil more frequently if your beating on it a lot... but I guess thats a general suggestion... all that extra fuel will wash down past your rings.

--
Cheese