Drivetrain ECU Group buy?
OVERDRIVE - Racing Champion
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,262
Likes: 72
From: Mililani, Hawaii
Hard to argue with supply and demand as a driving force for any item for sale on a free market. Time will tell if the $720 price is too steep for this market. And it is true that if buyers are reluctant to dish out the $$$ then the sellers will find a way to sell for less or loose the investment already made.
John Cooper Works kit the same thing. Seems like a lot of $$$ for what you get but if the market can bear it and there are only 1800 available in the US this year then you the consumer will vote with your $$$.
As far as mods go I don't find too many value upgrades for the mini. There are simply too few minis to make the volume needed for low cost upgrades. I guess we get some value when we are able to cross over and use nice wheels that would be also compatible with other cars like the Miata, or an antenna meant for the Honda S2000.
Oh Well, I still like my MCS and I still support Randy's efforts. Too few units will be sold for anyone to get very rich.
John Cooper Works kit the same thing. Seems like a lot of $$$ for what you get but if the market can bear it and there are only 1800 available in the US this year then you the consumer will vote with your $$$.
As far as mods go I don't find too many value upgrades for the mini. There are simply too few minis to make the volume needed for low cost upgrades. I guess we get some value when we are able to cross over and use nice wheels that would be also compatible with other cars like the Miata, or an antenna meant for the Honda S2000.
Oh Well, I still like my MCS and I still support Randy's efforts. Too few units will be sold for anyone to get very rich.
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
I'm interested in the chip, though I would expect to get revisions for free for a certain span of time and I would expect to be able to do the flashing myself.
I think that the $720 price can be justified if there is some degree of support and ablility to upgrade either for free or a nominal fee.
Just my $0.02
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 405
Likes: 1
From: Florida
The market price vs. cost price argument only works if the market price is higher - otherwise there will be no product. I have no problem with the $700 price when I think of the number of data points that must be tested to get a good map covering all throtle positions at all engine speeds. How long do you think it takes to setup and do each test and then adjust for the results? Multiple by $100/hour (seems a reasonable minimum as I end up paying a good chunk of that for basic maintenance work!) Now add in the cost to use equipment or track. Also add in costs for extra tests at different temps and altitudes. Its easy to get a cheap map by using few data points but I expect the development of a quality ECU map to be very high. Divide the total cost by the expected number of sales and that is the absolute minimum it will cost.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
ok...lets say you ten dyno runs at $100: ($1000) plus 3 hours/$300 programmer time per run...($3,000). that's $4,000.
then put in 100 hours (2-1/2weeks full time) of programming time at $100/hr, that's $10,000.
now amortize your computers, office space, etc. over the 100 hours/2-1/2 weeks @ $20/hour: that's another $2,000.
total cost, this model, is $16,000. Now if you wholesale the mod at 50% of retail, that is $350 per mod. you need to sell 46 mods to pay for the $16,000; after that it is all gravy.
if only 25% of the (optimistic) 600 pulley mods go for the chip (150), the gross after the first 46 pay for the R&D is $36,000.
then put in 100 hours (2-1/2weeks full time) of programming time at $100/hr, that's $10,000.
now amortize your computers, office space, etc. over the 100 hours/2-1/2 weeks @ $20/hour: that's another $2,000.
total cost, this model, is $16,000. Now if you wholesale the mod at 50% of retail, that is $350 per mod. you need to sell 46 mods to pay for the $16,000; after that it is all gravy.
if only 25% of the (optimistic) 600 pulley mods go for the chip (150), the gross after the first 46 pay for the R&D is $36,000.
4th Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 405
Likes: 1
From: Florida
So you think you can set up a full map for my MCS that will get it to run at it best at all temps from 0-100 degrees, altitudes from sea level to 5,000 ft and the full range of throttle and engine speeds in just 10 dyno runs - if so, you should go for it and start a new business.
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: Libertyville, Illinois
I'm not taking anyone's side on this issue. (The issue, by the way, is supposed to be a group buy on an ECU upgrade; so I didn't hijack the thread and turn it into the, Which Is A Bigger Rip Off-The Pulley Or The ECU thread.)
The fact is that decoding and recoding ECUs along with writing the program, or designing and machining a pulley are the same thing. They are both built from hours of people's labor, often using expensive electronic or machining equipment. If you don't have a business with overhead, have employees on payroll, own your own machines or sophisticated electronic equipment, and do it as a full time job, then you really don't know what it takes to do either of these research and development projects. Some of us do this for a living. In addition to paying for the cost of design on a part, and the manufacturing of the part, we have overhead too. Even honest people, who do quality work, need to earn a living.
And one more thing, the worst thing happening in the high performance industry is the rip-off of the designer or manufacterer's part. If you buy something that is a known copy of a quality part, then you are putting the guys who designed the original out of business. The people who come up with the best designs have usally spent time just dreaming up and trying a prototype, then improving on it. The copier just picks the best product and then reproduces it as cheaply as possible. Is this the American way? Software copiers or pulley copiers are equally bad. Don't support them. This ruins the industry, as the best people will go elsewhere.
just my $3.50
PerfPow
The fact is that decoding and recoding ECUs along with writing the program, or designing and machining a pulley are the same thing. They are both built from hours of people's labor, often using expensive electronic or machining equipment. If you don't have a business with overhead, have employees on payroll, own your own machines or sophisticated electronic equipment, and do it as a full time job, then you really don't know what it takes to do either of these research and development projects. Some of us do this for a living. In addition to paying for the cost of design on a part, and the manufacturing of the part, we have overhead too. Even honest people, who do quality work, need to earn a living.
And one more thing, the worst thing happening in the high performance industry is the rip-off of the designer or manufacterer's part. If you buy something that is a known copy of a quality part, then you are putting the guys who designed the original out of business. The people who come up with the best designs have usally spent time just dreaming up and trying a prototype, then improving on it. The copier just picks the best product and then reproduces it as cheaply as possible. Is this the American way? Software copiers or pulley copiers are equally bad. Don't support them. This ruins the industry, as the best people will go elsewhere.
just my $3.50
PerfPow
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: west palm beach
You are exactly right, it is a business with lots overhead and investment. If it was really easy to do there would be lots of companies offering Mini ECU upgrades.We are always testing trying to see if improvements can be made, lots of time spent in R & D.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
Likes: 0
From: NY NY
perfpower:
"The fact is that decoding and recoding ECUs along with writing the program, or designing and machining a pulley are the same thing. They are both built from hours of people's labor, often using expensive electronic or machining equipment. If you don't have a business with overhead, have employees on payroll, own your own machines or sophisticated electronic equipment, and do it as a full time job, then you really don't know what it takes to do either of these research and development projects. Some of us do this for a living. In addition to paying for the cost of design on a part, and the manufacturing of the part, we have overhead too. Even honest people, who do quality work, need to earn a living.
And one more thing, the worst thing happening in the high performance industry is the rip-off of the designer or manufacterer's part. If you buy something that is a known copy of a quality part, then you are putting the guys who designed the original out of business. The people who come up with the best designs have usally spent time just dreaming up and trying a prototype, then improving on it. The copier just picks the best product and then reproduces it as cheaply as possible. Is this the American way? Software copiers or pulley copiers are equally bad. Don't support them. This ruins the industry, as the best people will go elsewhere."
I'm with you completely.
i only used the pulley example since i have very first hand knowledge and someone did mention it.
As far as i can tell, the only difference in the examples is the pulleys will always have a per piece production cost, whereas the chip mods do not.
"The fact is that decoding and recoding ECUs along with writing the program, or designing and machining a pulley are the same thing. They are both built from hours of people's labor, often using expensive electronic or machining equipment. If you don't have a business with overhead, have employees on payroll, own your own machines or sophisticated electronic equipment, and do it as a full time job, then you really don't know what it takes to do either of these research and development projects. Some of us do this for a living. In addition to paying for the cost of design on a part, and the manufacturing of the part, we have overhead too. Even honest people, who do quality work, need to earn a living.
And one more thing, the worst thing happening in the high performance industry is the rip-off of the designer or manufacterer's part. If you buy something that is a known copy of a quality part, then you are putting the guys who designed the original out of business. The people who come up with the best designs have usally spent time just dreaming up and trying a prototype, then improving on it. The copier just picks the best product and then reproduces it as cheaply as possible. Is this the American way? Software copiers or pulley copiers are equally bad. Don't support them. This ruins the industry, as the best people will go elsewhere."
I'm with you completely.
i only used the pulley example since i have very first hand knowledge and someone did mention it.
As far as i can tell, the only difference in the examples is the pulleys will always have a per piece production cost, whereas the chip mods do not.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 772
Likes: 0
From: Torrington, CT
What is the real issue here? Is it the fact that the ECU update is not something tangible like an exhaust or intake? Hell, I paid $550.00 for the Magnaflow and $189.00 for the Madness Intake, both items result in less WHP than the ECU alone.
I don't hear anyone bitching about the cost of R&D for an exhaust vs. HP gain vs. what we pay for them. As for free enterprise, it works both ways, if the manufacturer can't recoup the cost of R&D and make a profit in our niche market, they will discontinue further development and turn to a market that is profitable. Guess who loses then?
X2
_________________
Men that drive MINIs have no shortcomings to make up for.
<IMG SRC="http://members.jenzabar.com/Marlon_M....jpg">
I don't hear anyone bitching about the cost of R&D for an exhaust vs. HP gain vs. what we pay for them. As for free enterprise, it works both ways, if the manufacturer can't recoup the cost of R&D and make a profit in our niche market, they will discontinue further development and turn to a market that is profitable. Guess who loses then?
X2
_________________
Men that drive MINIs have no shortcomings to make up for.
<IMG SRC="http://members.jenzabar.com/Marlon_M....jpg">
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
From: Libertyville, Illinois
jlm,
I completely understood your example. It was an excellent example, with R & D costs detailed, of how, as you said in another post, that anybody who can buy your pulley and bring it to a good machinist can then rip it off minus the development costs. I HATE THAT. I like to find the source and be loyal. It pays off in the long run. You're right, pulley costs, or any manufactured item, will always have a per unit cost.
PerfPow
I completely understood your example. It was an excellent example, with R & D costs detailed, of how, as you said in another post, that anybody who can buy your pulley and bring it to a good machinist can then rip it off minus the development costs. I HATE THAT. I like to find the source and be loyal. It pays off in the long run. You're right, pulley costs, or any manufactured item, will always have a per unit cost.
PerfPow
1st Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Hi all,
Would it not be the same thing if they lowered the price to $350 and got twice as many people to buy it. My wife would not let me spend $700, but she would let me spend $350. I am sure there are others who would buy at the lower price but cant swing the $700.
Just my $.02
Would it not be the same thing if they lowered the price to $350 and got twice as many people to buy it. My wife would not let me spend $700, but she would let me spend $350. I am sure there are others who would buy at the lower price but cant swing the $700.
Just my $.02
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
From: west palm beach
It would be great to lower the price to $350, but there will never be enough Mini Cooper owners who will buy the upgrade. And what about a shop, do you think they want to pay $350 for the ECU upgrade. No they want to make their 20 to 30% and they should. They have to make a living.
The same ECU upgrades that are being sold here in the US, cost over $1200 euro and they are purchased day in day out.
You have to realize ECU reprogramming is a business not a hobby.
The same ECU upgrades that are being sold here in the US, cost over $1200 euro and they are purchased day in day out.
You have to realize ECU reprogramming is a business not a hobby.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,859
Likes: 0
From: Plymouth, MN
>>The same ECU upgrades that are being sold here in the US, cost over $1200 euro and they
>>are purchased day in day out.
You just blew your argument there.
First of all 1200 Euro is almost $1400 so I'm doubtful that they are really that
expensive over there.
Second, if they are as you say "purchased day in day out", then there is certainly
plenty of market for them to be MUCH less than $700.
SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!
>>are purchased day in day out.
You just blew your argument there.
First of all 1200 Euro is almost $1400 so I'm doubtful that they are really that
expensive over there.
Second, if they are as you say "purchased day in day out", then there is certainly
plenty of market for them to be MUCH less than $700.
SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS!!!
Banned
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 2,859
Likes: 0
From: Plymouth, MN
>>You have to realize ECU reprogramming is a business not a hobby.
So is selling a pully modification and that goes for $400 or less.
And if ECU programming is a business, they are not selling to JUST MINI
owners, and they can probably completely pay for the overhead by
just the Ford ECU updates. So the MINI shouldn't cost more just because
there are fewer of them sold. THAT's running a scam, not a business.
What's your point in justifying the $700 flash image again?
So is selling a pully modification and that goes for $400 or less.
And if ECU programming is a business, they are not selling to JUST MINI
owners, and they can probably completely pay for the overhead by
just the Ford ECU updates. So the MINI shouldn't cost more just because
there are fewer of them sold. THAT's running a scam, not a business.
What's your point in justifying the $700 flash image again?
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 3,359
Likes: 1
From: New Jersey
>>What is the real issue here? Is it the fact that the ECU update is not something tangible like an exhaust or intake? Hell, I paid $550.00 for the Magnaflow and $189.00 for the Madness Intake, both items result in less WHP than the ECU alone.
>>
>>I don't hear anyone bitching about the cost of R&D for an exhaust vs. HP gain vs. what we pay for them. As for free enterprise, it works both ways, if the manufacturer can't recoup the cost of R&D and make a profit in our niche market, they will discontinue further development and turn to a market that is profitable. Guess who loses then?
You've made a great point here! We had the same problem in a pulley thread. $400-500 was too much for some people b/c the part was only $200 or less. People didn't want to pay all that labor. But some of those same people spent $600-700 on an exhaust! Yet the pulley mod will make 3x the noticeable power as an exhaust!!!
The same is happening here I think. The ECU could give you 30HP but people still won't like the fact that you are paying $700 for "software" when people are used to paying $20-50 for software (or nothing with freeware!) It's quite odd when you think of it that way...HP costs money...period! The pulley is the best bang for the buck and if this ECU is for real, I'm sorry to say but the ECU is the second best HP mod for the buck.
>>
>>I don't hear anyone bitching about the cost of R&D for an exhaust vs. HP gain vs. what we pay for them. As for free enterprise, it works both ways, if the manufacturer can't recoup the cost of R&D and make a profit in our niche market, they will discontinue further development and turn to a market that is profitable. Guess who loses then?
You've made a great point here! We had the same problem in a pulley thread. $400-500 was too much for some people b/c the part was only $200 or less. People didn't want to pay all that labor. But some of those same people spent $600-700 on an exhaust! Yet the pulley mod will make 3x the noticeable power as an exhaust!!!
The same is happening here I think. The ECU could give you 30HP but people still won't like the fact that you are paying $700 for "software" when people are used to paying $20-50 for software (or nothing with freeware!) It's quite odd when you think of it that way...HP costs money...period! The pulley is the best bang for the buck and if this ECU is for real, I'm sorry to say but the ECU is the second best HP mod for the buck.
Thread Starter
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5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Well, as the "father" of this thread...
I never argued someone's right to charge for something but rather the wrong-headedness in doing so.
Take Microsoft. (Ok, keep ALL political/right/wrong/satanic practice OUT of this thread please! This is ONLY AN EXAMPLE) They gave away TONS upon T O N S of software that came back to them TENBILLION fold! Now I know it's not the same thing but fundamentally it is! (sigh)
IT COSTS NOTHING MORE TO FLASH 1 ECU VS. 100 ECUs!!!!!!! (minus electricity, time.)
Let's take a better example:
Look at the forums on this ONE website!
"SO. Florida group pulley install."
"CA Group Pulley install."
"One-eye crack-using lesbian nun pulley install."
The pulley is selling like FREE BEER because people can afford it! I would NOT have done the pulley if it was $720 (much less $1000 to $1400) How many of you would have?
One more time:
(YELLING) IF YOU SELL 10 at $300 and 3 at $720 YOU'RE MONEY AHEAD AND YOU GET MORE FIELD DATA AND NAME RECOGNITION AND PRAISE AND FREE ADVERTISING ON THE MCO AND MINI2 BOARD AND PEOPLE LOVE YOU AND HUG YOU AND CALL YOU GEORGE!
Right now only the addicted, foolish, and wealthy will do this upgrade. There are as many people saying they WON'T do this upgrade as there are saying they WILL do the pulley or would do it for $300-$500. Hmmm.
Lastly, if I get time and full of enough **** and vinegar I'm going to make a smarter ECU upgrade. When I wrote shareware I started off charging too much money. Over time, I gave it away and just asked for a donation if you used it, liked it, and wanted more. I made a LOT of money. (Thank you Al Gore for inventing the Internet!)
</RANT>
-Jim
(Good gods. I the Linux hater arguing for the free and open source movement.)
I never argued someone's right to charge for something but rather the wrong-headedness in doing so.
Take Microsoft. (Ok, keep ALL political/right/wrong/satanic practice OUT of this thread please! This is ONLY AN EXAMPLE) They gave away TONS upon T O N S of software that came back to them TENBILLION fold! Now I know it's not the same thing but fundamentally it is! (sigh)
IT COSTS NOTHING MORE TO FLASH 1 ECU VS. 100 ECUs!!!!!!! (minus electricity, time.)
Let's take a better example:
Look at the forums on this ONE website!
"SO. Florida group pulley install."
"CA Group Pulley install."
"One-eye crack-using lesbian nun pulley install."
The pulley is selling like FREE BEER because people can afford it! I would NOT have done the pulley if it was $720 (much less $1000 to $1400) How many of you would have?
One more time:
(YELLING) IF YOU SELL 10 at $300 and 3 at $720 YOU'RE MONEY AHEAD AND YOU GET MORE FIELD DATA AND NAME RECOGNITION AND PRAISE AND FREE ADVERTISING ON THE MCO AND MINI2 BOARD AND PEOPLE LOVE YOU AND HUG YOU AND CALL YOU GEORGE!
Right now only the addicted, foolish, and wealthy will do this upgrade. There are as many people saying they WON'T do this upgrade as there are saying they WILL do the pulley or would do it for $300-$500. Hmmm.
Lastly, if I get time and full of enough **** and vinegar I'm going to make a smarter ECU upgrade. When I wrote shareware I started off charging too much money. Over time, I gave it away and just asked for a donation if you used it, liked it, and wanted more. I made a LOT of money. (Thank you Al Gore for inventing the Internet!)
</RANT>
-Jim
(Good gods. I the Linux hater arguing for the free and open source movement.)
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: The beautiful central coast of California
jayoung,
Yes, you are the father of this thread. And it seems as a father your children should have answered you by now.
timcuculic,
I'm with you, seriously, I'm WITH you, BRING ON THE PONIES.
Yes, you are the father of this thread. And it seems as a father your children should have answered you by now.
timcuculic,
I'm with you, seriously, I'm WITH you, BRING ON THE PONIES.
Former Vendor
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
From: Phila, PA
>>And one more thing, the worst thing happening in the high performance industry is the rip-off of the designer or manufacterer's part. If you buy something that is a known copy of a quality part, then you are putting the guys who designed the original out of business. The people who come up with the best designs have usally spent time just dreaming up and trying a prototype, then improving on it. The copier just picks the best product and then reproduces it as cheaply as possible. Is this the American way? Software copiers or pulley copiers are equally bad. Don't support them. This ruins the industry, as the best people will go elsewhere.
>>
>>just my $3.50
>>
>>PerfPow
I hear you on this one. Well put!
Thread Starter
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5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
>>jayoung,
>>Yes, you are the father of this thread. And it seems as a father your children should have answered you by now. :smile:
$400 divided by 15HP = $26 per HP
Let's say it adds only 10 HP... which we know it doesn't... still $40 per HP.
>>Yes, you are the father of this thread. And it seems as a father your children should have answered you by now. :smile:
$400 divided by 15HP = $26 per HP
Let's say it adds only 10 HP... which we know it doesn't... still $40 per HP.
ops: 
5th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
From: East
You guys are awful tough on the leading edge entreprenneurs working hard to develop mods for this machine. You'all obviously really want this mod badly as you are ranting on about the price. Hey, this America, you vote with your wallet. Don't buy it. And while you're at it don't buy Intel's new 3 gig processor. Why did you buy a Mini at a premium over sticker?
If enough of you don't buy it the developer will realize that his sales projections were in error and will probably lower the price. But right now he is the only one who has broken the code. He's invested the capital, the product was successful and now he has to recover the capital and return a profit. How many units will he sell? What percentage of Mini owners will flash their ECU? Right now the code is only for cars with pulleys. How many are out there now...150? How many other crazy f'ers in the next year are going to kiss their warranty goodby for a few more horses? Me, you, a thousand maybe. And in the meantime how many other developers are going to break the code? And when is BMW going to do something like change the engine or its management system and render this product obsolete?
And don't forget, he's only the manufacturer. He probably has a US master distributer who takes his cut and the local dealer who takes his. So if he gets $350/unit he's doing well.
So y'all sit down and write out his business plan. Don't forget to include his employees, the benefits, the programers, the building, lights phone, insurance, the test vehicles, all of it. It took them at least a year to crack the code so figure the capital required and then decide if you would back him. I'll bet you'd pass.
My guess is that given the size of this market, the risk associated with development and the potential life of the product, 7 months to return of his capital is a home run. Then he has a couple of years to milk it before he has to start all over again.
I applaud his success!
Now how do I get in on this Group Buy thing????????
If enough of you don't buy it the developer will realize that his sales projections were in error and will probably lower the price. But right now he is the only one who has broken the code. He's invested the capital, the product was successful and now he has to recover the capital and return a profit. How many units will he sell? What percentage of Mini owners will flash their ECU? Right now the code is only for cars with pulleys. How many are out there now...150? How many other crazy f'ers in the next year are going to kiss their warranty goodby for a few more horses? Me, you, a thousand maybe. And in the meantime how many other developers are going to break the code? And when is BMW going to do something like change the engine or its management system and render this product obsolete?
And don't forget, he's only the manufacturer. He probably has a US master distributer who takes his cut and the local dealer who takes his. So if he gets $350/unit he's doing well.
So y'all sit down and write out his business plan. Don't forget to include his employees, the benefits, the programers, the building, lights phone, insurance, the test vehicles, all of it. It took them at least a year to crack the code so figure the capital required and then decide if you would back him. I'll bet you'd pass.
My guess is that given the size of this market, the risk associated with development and the potential life of the product, 7 months to return of his capital is a home run. Then he has a couple of years to milk it before he has to start all over again.
I applaud his success!
Now how do I get in on this Group Buy thing????????