Drivetrain M7 DFIC vs Alta V2 vs Milltek Header
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 362
Likes: 0
From: Hagersville, Ontario
M7 DFIC vs Alta V2 vs Milltek Header
Im just doing some planning for the next round of modifications. I just traded out my Borla with another local mini owner for his Milltek.
So my 02 MCS is now sitting with 15% Alta pulley, Alta intake w/hose, Milltek catback exhaust, Denso IK22s, Kingsbourne wires, H-Sport springs, H-Sport rear sway bar, upgraded brakes... Im looking for my next step in mods.
I will be adding software (either GIAC or more likely MTH). but then Im debating on which mod to do next.
I've got it down to 3
Milltek Header (to compliment my new exhaust)
M7 DFIC top mount intercooler
Alta V2 top mount intercooler.
I will be doing both an intercooler upgrade AND the header, just debating which one would be better to do first. I dont track the car at all, just a bit of 'street fighting' and a sick obsession for making my car as fast as I can make it..
No other mods will be considerred. Just the 3 mentioned above.
which would you do, and why?
So my 02 MCS is now sitting with 15% Alta pulley, Alta intake w/hose, Milltek catback exhaust, Denso IK22s, Kingsbourne wires, H-Sport springs, H-Sport rear sway bar, upgraded brakes... Im looking for my next step in mods.
I will be adding software (either GIAC or more likely MTH). but then Im debating on which mod to do next.
I've got it down to 3
Milltek Header (to compliment my new exhaust)
M7 DFIC top mount intercooler
Alta V2 top mount intercooler.
I will be doing both an intercooler upgrade AND the header, just debating which one would be better to do first. I dont track the car at all, just a bit of 'street fighting' and a sick obsession for making my car as fast as I can make it..
No other mods will be considerred. Just the 3 mentioned above.
which would you do, and why?
Since you live in Canada, you probably don't need a better intercooler, especially now. A Milltek header seems like a much better choice. Is there any specific reason why you want a $900 Milltek compared to a $200 OBX or Megan? I would go with a cheaper header and spend a few more dollars to get it ceramic coated.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
Likes: 0
I agree, better use of your money
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
For the amount you'll pay for the DFIC I would get something else. I have one with all the bells and whistles and am not overly impressed considering the $1400CDN price tag. I did notice an improved throttle response but never felt the whole "this transforms the car" thing people were posting when they first came out.
*edited for sensitivity
*edited for sensitivity
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,710
Likes: 1
From: Northampton MA
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Former Vendor
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,594
Likes: 2
From: los angeles
For the amount you'll pay for the DFIC I would get something else. I have one with all the bells and whistles and am not overly impressed comsidering the $1400CDN price tag. I think the vendors severly raped the market with these "DFIC style" coolers...i bet those things cost well under $500CDN to make.
Let's see here:
Make core
Cast the inlet/exhaust parts
Put it all together
Add Bung inserts/drill tap
Free Silicone hoses
replacement bolts for clamps
Laser cut the diverter
CNC bend the diverter
Bolts for diverter
2" foam cut to length
1" foam cut to length
Bulb seal cut to length and shape
Hodscoop
If you want options:
Take the IC to ceramic coater
Take tp polisher
Pick up from ceramic coater
Pick up from polisher
Drop of to guy who applies HD coating
To finalize the deal"
Pay for employee who takes order.
Pay for employee who ships and packages the box.
Pay for the employee who makes sure your package
gets shipped within reasonable time.
Pay for the time you take when you need tech help.
Other costs involved:
Overhead for office IE. phone costs, Internet costs, Rent.
Advertising on NAM,
Advertising on Motoring underground.
Advertising on Whiteroof radio.
Advertising on Motoring file.
Advertising in MC2
Advertising on Motoring fun.
Things you never thought about:
The countless hours of R&D and discussions with engineers.
The close to 10K in costs for casting tools and design.
The initial cost of having everything done in hundreds to keep your cost down to a minimum.
The initial costs of having the hood scoop designed.
The initial cost of having the composit molds done.
Testing and retesting to make sure everything fits.
The countless hours figuring out why certain things don't work.
Fix all issues if any.
Realizing that the stock boots don't work very well on the DFIC
so we decide to give away free Silicone boots to anyone who needs them
and I can't just buy 50pcs.
The foam strip needed to be re engineered for perfect seal, and with that
we decided to give them away for free, and in the same time add the new
SS bolts.....again for free.
A full install manuall with pictures.
Pay my engineer for CFD testing.
Purchasing datalogger and thermocouples for testing.
So with that said feel free to make your own intercooler....
Happy Hollidays/Merry Christmas
Peter
M7 Tuning
562-608-8123
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
Also while I am slightly involved in the same industry as you albeit on different vehicles I happen to know a little about all the costs of the things you've mentioned including casting coating and sourcing cores so please don't bother trying to educate me.
Seann
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,184
Likes: 0
From: bryan tx
Good evening....
Let's see here:
Make core
Cast the inlet/exhaust parts
Put it all together
Add Bung inserts/drill tap
Free Silicone hoses
replacement bolts for clamps
Laser cut the diverter
CNC bend the diverter
Bolts for diverter
2" foam cut to length
1" foam cut to length
Bulb seal cut to length and shape
Hodscoop
If you want options:
Take the IC to ceramic coater
Take tp polisher
Pick up from ceramic coater
Pick up from polisher
Drop of to guy who applies HD coating
To finalize the deal"
Pay for employee who takes order.
Pay for employee who ships and packages the box.
Pay for the employee who makes sure your package
gets shipped within reasonable time.
Pay for the time you take when you need tech help.
Other costs involved:
Overhead for office IE. phone costs, Internet costs, Rent.
Advertising on NAM,
Advertising on Motoring underground.
Advertising on Whiteroof radio.
Advertising on Motoring file.
Advertising in MC2
Advertising on Motoring fun.
Things you never thought about:
The countless hours of R&D and discussions with engineers.
The close to 10K in costs for casting tools and design.
The initial cost of having everything done in hundreds to keep your cost down to a minimum.
The initial costs of having the hood scoop designed.
The initial cost of having the composit molds done.
Testing and retesting to make sure everything fits.
The countless hours figuring out why certain things don't work.
Fix all issues if any.
Realizing that the stock boots don't work very well on the DFIC
so we decide to give away free Silicone boots to anyone who needs them
and I can't just buy 50pcs.
The foam strip needed to be re engineered for perfect seal, and with that
we decided to give them away for free, and in the same time add the new
SS bolts.....again for free.
A full install manuall with pictures.
Pay my engineer for CFD testing.
Purchasing datalogger and thermocouples for testing.
So with that said feel free to make your own intercooler....
Happy Hollidays/Merry Christmas
Peter
M7 Tuning
562-608-8123
Let's see here:
Make core
Cast the inlet/exhaust parts
Put it all together
Add Bung inserts/drill tap
Free Silicone hoses
replacement bolts for clamps
Laser cut the diverter
CNC bend the diverter
Bolts for diverter
2" foam cut to length
1" foam cut to length
Bulb seal cut to length and shape
Hodscoop
If you want options:
Take the IC to ceramic coater
Take tp polisher
Pick up from ceramic coater
Pick up from polisher
Drop of to guy who applies HD coating
To finalize the deal"
Pay for employee who takes order.
Pay for employee who ships and packages the box.
Pay for the employee who makes sure your package
gets shipped within reasonable time.
Pay for the time you take when you need tech help.
Other costs involved:
Overhead for office IE. phone costs, Internet costs, Rent.
Advertising on NAM,
Advertising on Motoring underground.
Advertising on Whiteroof radio.
Advertising on Motoring file.
Advertising in MC2
Advertising on Motoring fun.
Things you never thought about:
The countless hours of R&D and discussions with engineers.
The close to 10K in costs for casting tools and design.
The initial cost of having everything done in hundreds to keep your cost down to a minimum.
The initial costs of having the hood scoop designed.
The initial cost of having the composit molds done.
Testing and retesting to make sure everything fits.
The countless hours figuring out why certain things don't work.
Fix all issues if any.
Realizing that the stock boots don't work very well on the DFIC
so we decide to give away free Silicone boots to anyone who needs them
and I can't just buy 50pcs.
The foam strip needed to be re engineered for perfect seal, and with that
we decided to give them away for free, and in the same time add the new
SS bolts.....again for free.
A full install manuall with pictures.
Pay my engineer for CFD testing.
Purchasing datalogger and thermocouples for testing.
So with that said feel free to make your own intercooler....
Happy Hollidays/Merry Christmas
Peter
M7 Tuning
562-608-8123
greatly appreciated
-justin
x2! LMAO I loved those commercials... Vee-Dub..
@ M7, I think you took Saifa's post too personal...
I agree, for $1400 you could have a *****'in FMIC made for you and then some...
Of the 3 I'd take the M7 DFIC if I had to choose... oh and a catless OBX as a header...
Banned
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
I will be constructing a FMIC actually...thanks for the input though. I am in fact a fan of your products Peter but IMO $1400 CDN is a lot of money for a Top Mount intercooler. I like my DFIC but I think there are better ways to spend that kind of dough. The poster asked a question and I answered it from my point of view.
Also while I am slightly involved in the same industry as you albeit on different vehicles I happen to know a little about all the costs of the things you've mentioned including casting coating and sourcing cores so please don't bother trying to educate me.
Seann
Also while I am slightly involved in the same industry as you albeit on different vehicles I happen to know a little about all the costs of the things you've mentioned including casting coating and sourcing cores so please don't bother trying to educate me.
Seann
Congratulations because I agree it is way overpriced and I am looking for a cheaper more effective alternative. Please keep us all informed of your progress.
Bill
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
Obviously, I'm not privy to all the details of what it costs vendors to research/manufacture/market their products, but whenever I'm initially shocked by the price of some part, it helps me if I remind myself that these are custom MINI parts, not DVD players. The manufacturers are not able to amortize their costs over a 10,000-unit production run. How many DFICs will M7 ever sell - a few hundred, maybe?
With production runs that small, we as purchasers are going to have to absorb a significant portion of the R&D/marketing/overhead costs with each unit we buy - there's no way around it for virtually custom-made parts.
With production runs that small, we as purchasers are going to have to absorb a significant portion of the R&D/marketing/overhead costs with each unit we buy - there's no way around it for virtually custom-made parts.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Obviously, I'm not privy to all the details of what it costs vendors to research/manufacture/market their products, but whenever I'm initially shocked by the price of some part, it helps me if I remind myself that these are custom MINI parts, not DVD players. The manufacturers are not able to amortize their costs over a 10,000-unit production run. How many DFICs will M7 ever sell - a few hundred, maybe?
With production runs that small, we as purchasers are going to have to absorb a significant portion of the R&D/marketing/overhead costs with each unit we buy - there's no way around it for virtually custom-made parts.
With production runs that small, we as purchasers are going to have to absorb a significant portion of the R&D/marketing/overhead costs with each unit we buy - there's no way around it for virtually custom-made parts.
Yer up late Scott.
Merry Christmas
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 7,201
Likes: 8
From: Norfolk, VA
Merry Christmas to you too, Terry! Give me five days off in a row with not much to do, and I gradually get my days and nights backwards. I'm actually going to try to get to bed at a decent hour tonight, so I'm not completely backwards when I go back to work on Wednesday.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
For something to be considered expensive, or overpriced, there must be a comparison then to something else in order to draw such a conclusion. Compared to what Honda aftermkt parts sell for, yes, but with that rationale, virtually all MINI aftermkt parts are "over-priced." With our small mkt, supply & demand are very much alive...
Within our MINI world of goodies, other ICs have sold for more, even much more; and while some have sold for less, none have been a lot less than the DFIC. The price of the DFIC is not grossly more than other MINI options...
The GRS has been recognized as one of the better, if not the best TMIC unit - and this sells for about 850 bucks. I can't imagine most folks willing to spend that much dough would feel that 50 bucks more makes the DFIC too expensive. This is strictly a price comparison, and doesn't even factor-in performance differences, and features included.
I had the GRS, and with Dr O's help, tested and analized its performance, and essentially found that a larger scoop, on the stock IC, outperformed it. Limited testing of the DFIC showed lower max IATs due to its improved ability to better utilize the ambient flow to cool the charged air. The additional benefit of pre & post core bungs, and access to the spark plugs is nice as well...
If something else can be brought to market for us (not just ICs), especially something unique, the Community would love that for sure! Unfortunately, we've heard this a lot over several years, often with nothing materializing, or a one-off here and there. Good intentions meeting the reality of what it takes commitment-wise (time, desire and money) to make a marketable product...
Within our MINI world of goodies, other ICs have sold for more, even much more; and while some have sold for less, none have been a lot less than the DFIC. The price of the DFIC is not grossly more than other MINI options...
The GRS has been recognized as one of the better, if not the best TMIC unit - and this sells for about 850 bucks. I can't imagine most folks willing to spend that much dough would feel that 50 bucks more makes the DFIC too expensive. This is strictly a price comparison, and doesn't even factor-in performance differences, and features included.
I had the GRS, and with Dr O's help, tested and analized its performance, and essentially found that a larger scoop, on the stock IC, outperformed it. Limited testing of the DFIC showed lower max IATs due to its improved ability to better utilize the ambient flow to cool the charged air. The additional benefit of pre & post core bungs, and access to the spark plugs is nice as well...
If something else can be brought to market for us (not just ICs), especially something unique, the Community would love that for sure! Unfortunately, we've heard this a lot over several years, often with nothing materializing, or a one-off here and there. Good intentions meeting the reality of what it takes commitment-wise (time, desire and money) to make a marketable product...
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 317
Likes: 0
From: Toronto
I don't want to wreck Bugs' thread or cause a big discussion about how products should be priced...that was never my intention nor was it to directly insult M7 or the way they conduct their business. I edited my original post to reflect that.
When you re-read Bug's original post as I just did you'll see he is NOT considering any other mods besides either a Milltek header or a DFIC style cooler be it the Alta or M7.
Speaking from my own experience I can say i did not feel much of a gain from the header. I went with the Megan however which cost me $350CDN which I then ceramic coated for $150 Canadian. I believe the Milltek to be a little too rich in price and while I have no proof of this I cannot see it out performaning the Megan enough to justify the extra costs (~$1300CDN before taxes). The Megan does not include a Cat but you can fix that problem for somewhere around $250CDN.
You also may want to look at it this way. You say you want a bit of a "street fighter" machine. With the $2700CDN you'll spend if you go the DFIC / Milltek route you can have close to have the price for a Twincharge kit or very close to what the new M62 packages will likely cost.
When you re-read Bug's original post as I just did you'll see he is NOT considering any other mods besides either a Milltek header or a DFIC style cooler be it the Alta or M7.
Speaking from my own experience I can say i did not feel much of a gain from the header. I went with the Megan however which cost me $350CDN which I then ceramic coated for $150 Canadian. I believe the Milltek to be a little too rich in price and while I have no proof of this I cannot see it out performaning the Megan enough to justify the extra costs (~$1300CDN before taxes). The Megan does not include a Cat but you can fix that problem for somewhere around $250CDN.
You also may want to look at it this way. You say you want a bit of a "street fighter" machine. With the $2700CDN you'll spend if you go the DFIC / Milltek route you can have close to have the price for a Twincharge kit or very close to what the new M62 packages will likely cost.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
IC's and headers have been red-headed step children on NAM for quite some time; and mostly for good reason. Gains have been generally minimal, making these two options not the most desirable, at least initially...
Continue on with the discussion of course. I was taking exception to the calling of a vendor's product "overpriced," when in reality it is right in the MINI ballpark, and offers compelling advantages over other options on the market.
I had the good fortune of being very much involved in the process to bring the DFIC to market. I now have a deep appreciation for what it takes, and the challenges a business, particularly a small one, must face with a small market like ours.
Bugs - Since you want to get both a header and IC, and just want to know which you should get first, my recommendation would be the header. Come the warmer months, get the IC you want...
Continue on with the discussion of course. I was taking exception to the calling of a vendor's product "overpriced," when in reality it is right in the MINI ballpark, and offers compelling advantages over other options on the market.
I had the good fortune of being very much involved in the process to bring the DFIC to market. I now have a deep appreciation for what it takes, and the challenges a business, particularly a small one, must face with a small market like ours.
Bugs - Since you want to get both a header and IC, and just want to know which you should get first, my recommendation would be the header. Come the warmer months, get the IC you want...
5th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
I have found the MINI aftermarket parts very inexpensive compared to other cars. Try pricing out a CAI for an E55 Mercedes or some of the Dinan parts for a BMW. I have spent about $8,000 for the following mods including labor: CAI, 15% Pulley, MTH, Milltek, TB, Koni FDSs, H-sport springs, H-sport rear sway bar, rear camber arms, front aero grill. Kosei wheels, Yoka tires, M7 DFIC, Detroit Tuned BBK, Hawk pads, Whalen ****, custom mats, Denso plugs, OCC, Redline shift and e-brake boot, custom leather door arm pulls, PIAA driving lights, CF rear grill inserts. Gosh... for all that dough I could have bought a set of AMG wheels or if I put in another $12,000, some Maserati brakes. I know I am going to get bashed for saying this but I don't know how many of the MINI aftermarket companies stay in business. Their profit margins are extremely low.
5th Gear
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 836
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles
PS...and...many of the aftermarket dealers are MINI enthusiasts and provide FREE valuable information. I have spent countless hours on the phone with Scott at Central Coast Coopers, Peter at M7 and Randy at WMS - NO CHARGE!!!
Bugs, if you are wondering which intercooler to use, go with the DFIC. It performs very well, and you can get it polished(shown), natural, and with a black thermal dispersant coating. And IMO, looks a hell of a lot better than the Alta...
image courtesy of M7 Tuning
image courtesy of Alta MINI Performance
image courtesy of M7 Tuning
image courtesy of Alta MINI Performance