Dr. O, any worries about water blasting right on your air filter when it rains?

 

Rain, in CA?! That is a valid question though...

Agreed about taking air from the IC scoop not being an ideal solution. Maximize all that you can for the IC as that is the last line of defense to impact the IAT's...

 

This hole is actually above the top of the upper grill, so the water would really have to splash up there to get to the filter. A lot of water would have to get to the filter to actually clog it, and it's would breath more from the back at first..... I don't really see how enough can get in there to drown it. I just hope not to be proved wrong.....

I've had a HAI on the car for a long time, seems the worst I've noticed is the front of the filter being a bit damp, but not really wet.

Matt

 

So... This morning I took it all out again to insulate it. It's all back now and pretty.... Well, it's all back now....

Oh, and Motonikki, click on the link in the first post to read about some data logging from the HAI vs stock. The HAI (as first installed, with no extra opening or baffles) did give the SC more pressure at it's input, but it was hotter air so the net affect on peak power was about zero. But like I said in the other thread, it has better throttle response. So I've kept it on. With the larger opening and more sheet metal work, I expect to get some of the power gains of true CAIs while maintianing the throttle response of the HAI.

If I were to do it all over again? I'd either do this, or a modification of something out there. A lot of the aftermarket needs insulation, and a lot of the ones that don't need other stuff or cost a bundle.... So I don't see anything perfect out there yet..... Mine isn't perfect either, but it sure costs less!

So far, I'm happy...

Matt

 

here's why..... The air that goes into the TB gets cooled by the IC. If you're not moving, on paper it's a bit worse than a wash (something like every degree increase in intake temp would increase IATs by .2-.4 degrees, it you are moving, then the thermal effeciency of the IC is greater than 0%, and you dump some of the heat you extracted from the post IC horn out the IC cooling air.... Any speed over 3-5 MPH should be a win.

After I made changes to my HAI on the bumper side, I was reading around and read your changes..... Couple the two together and it should work really well! I'm stuffing more cool air in the front by blocking air that can go through the radiator...... Should help with heat soak a bit too....

But cool stuff! (sorry, crappy pun...)

Matt

 

Don't do what?

As I've got it set up, the HAI is darn near at ambient when the car is moving. At a standstill, the whole under-bonnet heats up, so it is hard to stop the HAI from breathing some hotter air. I've tried to block out heat from the exhaust header and the IC exit horn which, although it is not all that hot in the overall scheme of things, is very very close. The measurements say these changes do reduce heat soak temps. If I could block off the radiator, that would be a good next step. I don't remember -- does your recent mod limit air circulation from the radiator to the HAI, or is it aimed solely at increasing air flow?

 

From the photos of Dr O's mod, it seems to block radiator air because the ductwork extends from the radiator shrowd to the IC outlet horn and down around the TB. In a perfect world, where the engine did not move (but caused no vibrations to be felt by occupants!), the ductwork could completely seal against the engine components to provide both a heat shield and improved cold air flow to the air filter.
Now what we need is an exit strategy (for the air, I mean...) both for the air filter and the IC...

 

But then again, it should fight heat soak a bit, and I don't know how much benefit you get from having cool air from around the HAI hit it.....

Hmmmmm....

Matt

 

Oh, ok. I see your point. The way I look at it, though, is that there's cool air around the HAI and IC exit horn ONLY when the car is moving. And at that time, the IC is doing way more than the IC exit horn ever could for heat transfer, so there's basically nothing lost in insulating it. But when the car is stopped, and the IC starts to bake in the rising engine heat, there's no sense in allowing the exit horn to carry that heat over into the HAI! That's when the insulation helps.

 

on even number days I think about it one way.....

Matt

 

Sorry inimmini, I'm with Dr O on this one. Ever since I saw the insulation on the IC-out horn, I thought it was not a good idea, and I think Dr O said it then, too. I'll start my mantra again--air flow (actually I share this mantra with Dr. O, Partsman and Steve (why isn't here?)). OK, so *everything* gets hot when sitting at red lights, but air flow is your friend when you get the green light! IMHO, the insulation prevents the IC-out horn from getting cool once you get going again. And the airflow to the HAI is quite good, and cool, especially with Dr O's new duct (or is that duck -- wtf?)
The IC-out horn gets hot more from the conductivity of heat from the engine parts its connected to rather than the air flowing inside it. Insulation will keep the heat in the Al and prevent it from transferring to the air (and Al is very good at conducting heat and the horn has a lot of surface area).
My bet: leave the IC and horns exposed and increase the fresh air flow to these parts by opening up air flow ducts (not yet available for the MINI, but coming soon...)
I'm out

 

btw, I don't think this is true. My experiments with the Aerogel blanket don't support this conclusion. It takes quite some time for the DFIC, especially with the ceramic coating on the underside, to heat *just from engine heat*. Being stuck in traffic for 10 minutes is fatal for any performance car, and driving one in these conditions is no fun, and if you make it fun, it's dangerous. So really the performance part of the MINI is when we are constantly moving...even if it's around the Nurburgring!

 

No need to apologize. It's fine to disagree, without being disagreeable. On the first paragraph, in the absence of an HAI, I think we're debating minor points that we know very little about, and probably have little effect on IATs. For example, the statement that the IC exit horn heats up mostly by conduction: how do you justify that? The system is pretty complex: convection, radiation, both inside and outside the horn are present, in addition to conduction. And how would you know whether the horn cools down when the car starts moving mainly through external vs. internal air flow? Too many unknowns to guess - you'd have to run the experiment.

If you want to discuss insulating the intake manifold, how about the LOWER part, that runs right along the radiator hose and next to the S/C outlet? To me, that is a much more clear-cut area where insulation is a benefit.

So, in the absence of the HAI, my guess is that insulating the IC outlet doesn't make a hill of beans difference. Since the HAI is right up against this puppy, though, I think it has to heat up at least some of the air entering the HAI (mainly after heat soak). In this case, I think the best bet is to insulate the side facing the HAI.

Of course, I don't have a DFIC with the associated thermal blanket, but I can say that without a doubt the stock IC heats up at idle. On a 77F day, I measured the IC outlet temp increasing from 92 F to 115 F in 4 minutes. No doubt the IC exit horn was at least that hot. After a 15 min stop (engine off) on a 45 F day, the IC outlet was sitting at 105F.

Fully agree that air flow is good thing, which is why I opened up the fire wall and put in a baffle to funnel air to the HAI. Dr. O's mod is probably also worthwhile, and I'll surely get around to doing that in the future. But insulation is really not near as necessary when the car is moving as when it's stopped. So, send me that useless Aerogel blanket and stop stopping!

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so now I'm thinking different things....

Heat soak at reast seems to me to come mostly from convection. There's no boost to speak of, but there's no air flow through the engine compartment. The hot air will rise off the header, instead of being flushed out under the car. If the radiator fans come on you're completely hosed. I don't know how much heat actually comes in from the head via the intake runners. I was thinking of an insulating spacer but it's a total biatch because of the injector locations....

If the heat to the stuff comes in mostly from this, then insulating the heck out of the parts is a great idea! So lately I've been thinking of barrier coating the inside and out side of the post IC horn and intake manifold.

If most of the heat comes in from the head via conduction in the Al, then keeping them uncovered or a thermal dispersant is the way to go..... But SS isn't a good conductor of heat, but the gasket is thin. Anyone up for making a composite intake manifold and putting this all to rest?

Actually, I think there might be two use cases that dictate different schemes. For heat soak minimization, insulating everything is probably the best, even if you give up a bit of heat exchange surface. This will deliver the best off the line throttle response by minimizing short term temp increases from heating via radiator or header air. Probably a very good way to go for street driving. For at speed heat transfer maximization, things might be a bit different. Like with my set up, I'll have a lot of colder air running past the exit horn. So no coating! Damn! Two opposite opinions in the same day...... It's getting worse.....

Matt

 

I am running insulation on the intake manifold behind the radiator and radiator hose for the reasons you enunciate. If or when, I open up the radiator shrowd and fab. a duct to funnel air under the DFIC and over the intake manifold, I think I will remove the insulation. Again, though, as Dr. O points out, the radiation of heat from the Al manifold only works when the air is actually moving across it--not in stop start driving.
Interesting to speculate, and in my experience, very hard to measure within the standard error.

 

The thing works. Insulating it was worth the effort as well. I'll be fixing the first hack I'd done down by the frame rail to make it better as well, then I'll log some temp deltas and let you all know how cool its getting. I think the stuff inimini (did I get that right) on the back side would help as well, but I have other plans for that space!

Anyway, FWIW, I was looking for metric nut-rivets and found a pretty good deal that I'd thought I'd pass along. It's a hand tool like a pop-rivet tool, a plastic case, mandrels for M3-M6 and ten nut-rivets of each size, all for $57.50. The place is called Maryland Metrics, but it ships direct from CA (go figure!). The also have a deal for free 6" plastic calipers with orders over $50.... Yee-hah!


I've ordered one, and I'll switch to M3 screws to hold it on. Then I'll be able to take it off at will, and it's possible that I could get some comps to a "stock like" set up (I'd have to build up the missing parts of the radiator support out of Al tape! God I love that stuff!).

Matt

 

Great, Matt!! Nice to be able to bolt-on, bolt-off at will. I've been thinking about the plastic radiator shroud and associated rubber gasket--what purpose does it serve? I can see that it might stop "leakage" in front of the IC under higher scoop pressures, and seal the inlet for the stock airbox duct, but if you have a DFIC, and an HAI, maybe it's superfluous?

 

but it looks better! Actually, if I do make a braket to support the inner part of the radiator support, I may cut it. But it will stay a while in case I do test some "stock like" configurations....

Matt

 

In fact many air intake manifolds are plastic these days. There is some weight savings vs metal, but another plus is the cooler intake charge. The general consensus in automotive engineering, then, seems to come down on the side of reduced heat transfer thru the manifold.

Phil, now it is my turn to say "sorrrry". Heat transfer by radiation can take place in a vacuum. It is how we get heat from the sun! No need for air flow, or any air at all.

 

Trust me, inimmini, we share a common grail here. Your "sorry" is beyond me-- my PhD is in economics, not physics like Dr O. What I really meant, was that cool, fresh airflow would have a greater potential to cool engine parts than no airflow, as when stopped. I am thinking of all those air-cooled engines, in VWs and Porsches, and lots of old motorcycles here. Our modern cars have so much "bodywork" instead of grilles and radiators as in the old days, that they really don't have lots of fresh cold air entering the engine bay-- I hope the decision was based on the gains from aerodynamics outweighing the losses from hot engines...
Back on topic--I think we're all trying out "theories" and walking along the fine line between heat rejection, and heat dissipation.

 

Here's a photo of an interim step. I need to get more adhesive foam, and I haven't insulated this one yet. The idea is to keep the colder air around the filter, instead of cooling something like a headlight! And the stock box is in there to do something like inimmini did in this thread. (I think his mod will keep heat soak down by blocking header heat from rising up to the intake...)


Here's another view....


Matt

 

The Improving the HAI thread and the Cooling down the HAI thread have been merged together at the request of the originators of those threads.

 

Matt you are definetly getting plenty of inbound air from your new opening. Have you considered using the stock CAI/ vent opening as a DFIC outlet (i.e. vent) as opposed to a secondary inlet?

 

I think the IC exit air goes down around the header and out under the car. To get this to work better, I think a larger ridge across the bottom of the car would help suck the air out of the engine compartment. Also, I think there's a bit of posative pressure in the cowl at speed. And I have more IC games coming....

Matt

 

I still think that this is the best set-up.

The numbers on my heat gun are good enough for me.

The design philosophy is simple. Segregate the engine compartment into two sides.

The air intake side is insulated from the hot exhaust header and is an open corridor from the grill to the windshield vent.

While at a stop light, the majority of the heat entering the air filter is coming from the exhaust header. The fabricated, insulated bulkhead serves as a barrier from this heat.

While driving, the majority of engine heat is removed by the airflow over the engine and out through the bottom as it should be by original design. The air filter is allowed fresh cool air via the corridor.

Simple, cheap, and can be returned to stock if required.

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