Drivetrain MINI MANIA NEW LSD!
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04-04-2003, 06:54 AM
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#9
04-04-2003, 05:08 PM
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Thanks COOPERSPEED :smile:
There isn't much infomation about it however. How does it compares to the QUAIFE unit? Does the installation of this limited slip differential salisbury clutch type unit requires modifications to the inside of the bell housing like the quaife? Has anyone or MINI MANIA installed one of these yet?
I very much care.
However, I also would like to see such an option offered by JCW and installed by MINI dealers.
Peace,
Why can't we just get along
There isn't much infomation about it however. How does it compares to the QUAIFE unit? Does the installation of this limited slip differential salisbury clutch type unit requires modifications to the inside of the bell housing like the quaife? Has anyone or MINI MANIA installed one of these yet?
I very much care.
However, I also would like to see such an option offered by JCW and installed by MINI dealers.
Peace,
Why can't we just get along
#10
11-27-2003, 02:25 PM
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#11
11-27-2003, 02:48 PM
#12
11-27-2003, 03:46 PM
>>>>Do any of us? I am truly obsessed with this car and the site. Maybe I need to take a break...
>>
>>same here. My wife says, "You are obsessed with that little car of yours!"
And the answer to that is Yes. And it's a whole lot of fun.
I could not be happier.
For the Quaife LSD, some owners report on the internet that they have had no trouble driving it for a year.
From:
http://splparts.com/doc/tech/LSD.htm
The quaife is a gear type LSD.
-----------
Gear-type limited slip differentials-
Finally there are other limited slip differentials that work through gears to limit slip. These LSDs can offer very immediate response like a clutch-type LSD, with little maintenance and quiet operation. However, there are not as easily upgraded for high horsepower as with the clutch-type LSD, they are limited by the strength of their gears. Gear-type LSDs are also generally a lot more costly than the clutch-type or viscous-type LSDs.
From:
http://www.jscspeed.com/mini/clutch/quaife_lsd.htm
"The Quaife is extremely strong and durable and since the Quaife is gear operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly replacement.
Every Quaife ATB Differential comes with something else other's don't have: a Limited Lifetime Warranty. This warranty applies even when raced. QUAIFE LIMITED SLIP DIFF. FOR COOPER "S" MODELS ONLY."
If there is this warranty then I would think the maintenance would be minimal.
>>
>>same here. My wife says, "You are obsessed with that little car of yours!"
And the answer to that is Yes. And it's a whole lot of fun.
I could not be happier.
For the Quaife LSD, some owners report on the internet that they have had no trouble driving it for a year.
From:
http://splparts.com/doc/tech/LSD.htm
The quaife is a gear type LSD.
-----------
Gear-type limited slip differentials-
Finally there are other limited slip differentials that work through gears to limit slip. These LSDs can offer very immediate response like a clutch-type LSD, with little maintenance and quiet operation. However, there are not as easily upgraded for high horsepower as with the clutch-type LSD, they are limited by the strength of their gears. Gear-type LSDs are also generally a lot more costly than the clutch-type or viscous-type LSDs.
From:
http://www.jscspeed.com/mini/clutch/quaife_lsd.htm
"The Quaife is extremely strong and durable and since the Quaife is gear operated, it has no plates or clutches that can wear out and need costly replacement.
Every Quaife ATB Differential comes with something else other's don't have: a Limited Lifetime Warranty. This warranty applies even when raced. QUAIFE LIMITED SLIP DIFF. FOR COOPER "S" MODELS ONLY."
If there is this warranty then I would think the maintenance would be minimal.
#13
11-27-2003, 06:36 PM
#14
11-27-2003, 10:31 PM
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I've read the documentation on these units, and since I'm kinda new to the car modding thing, I'm still not quite clear on what this unit does...
Can someone give a brief explanation of what it actually is? I know it is supposed to help straight line accelleration and accelleration out of turns, but what is it actually?
Thanks for your patience...
Can someone give a brief explanation of what it actually is? I know it is supposed to help straight line accelleration and accelleration out of turns, but what is it actually?
Thanks for your patience...
#15
11-28-2003, 07:19 AM
I've had a quaife LSD in my MCS since Dec 02. My car has been autocrossed heavily in the past year (2 drivers, multiple test & tunes, several driving schools, and lots of autox events.)
The quaife unit costs around $1000 and installation is from $900 to $1200. Unless you are skillful enough to try it yourself.
Having a Quaife in the MCS is pretty much a mandatory mod if you want to be competetive in Street Touring X autocross class. I know of at least six other MCS owners who have installed the Quaife. None of them has reported a lick of trouble. Is it possible to break them? I'm sure it is. Ford offers the quaife in their Euro Spec Rally Focus (RS?) and guess what - it also uses the getrag six speed transmission
What does the quaife do? Well if you autox, race, are drive real hard on the street you will notice that coming out of corners you get a lot of wheel spin because the stock open diff shifts power to the wheel with less grip (along the path of least resistance). The Quaife does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel. So basically you can go faster.
Rumor has been floating around that MINI will offer some form of LSD as an option in 2005. Whether this is a Quaife or not (or even true) remains to be seen.
The question I have is who makes the Mania LSD, how does it compare to the quaife, etc.
David
The quaife unit costs around $1000 and installation is from $900 to $1200. Unless you are skillful enough to try it yourself.
Having a Quaife in the MCS is pretty much a mandatory mod if you want to be competetive in Street Touring X autocross class. I know of at least six other MCS owners who have installed the Quaife. None of them has reported a lick of trouble. Is it possible to break them? I'm sure it is. Ford offers the quaife in their Euro Spec Rally Focus (RS?) and guess what - it also uses the getrag six speed transmission
What does the quaife do? Well if you autox, race, are drive real hard on the street you will notice that coming out of corners you get a lot of wheel spin because the stock open diff shifts power to the wheel with less grip (along the path of least resistance). The Quaife does just the opposite. It senses which wheel has the better grip, and biases the power to that wheel. It does this smoothly and constantly, and without ever completely removing power from the other wheel. So basically you can go faster.
Rumor has been floating around that MINI will offer some form of LSD as an option in 2005. Whether this is a Quaife or not (or even true) remains to be seen.
The question I have is who makes the Mania LSD, how does it compare to the quaife, etc.
David
#17
11-28-2003, 12:29 PM
>>Does this warranty also cover removal and re-installation expenses for those of us without access to a lift?
I think the warranty applies to the part only. The labor costs for installation and removal would be in the range of $1000. Many owners will also install a lightweight flywheel at the same time since that would entail about the same labor charge.
For a discussion on LSD see the two links I included in my last post or search google.com for "limited slip differential". In a nutshell LSD helps to allow you to deliver the most amount of power to the front driving wheels while minimizing loss of traction and wheelspin. While this benefit is minimal under normal driving conditions, it would be very helpful if you hit a patch of very slippery road in bad weather or if you are driving fast through corners or accelerating from a stop. The problem is the price tag of about $2000+ installed.
Mini Mania LSD is $1395
http://new.minimania.com/web/Item/NMG1002/InvDetail.cfm
"This great race and street limited slip differential is a salisbury clutch type that insures smooth operation and superior responsiveness. Its small size and light weight add to its effectiveness! Can easily handle 250 horsepower. New carrier bearings available"
I'll see if I can get more info on this LSD.
I think the warranty applies to the part only. The labor costs for installation and removal would be in the range of $1000. Many owners will also install a lightweight flywheel at the same time since that would entail about the same labor charge.
For a discussion on LSD see the two links I included in my last post or search google.com for "limited slip differential". In a nutshell LSD helps to allow you to deliver the most amount of power to the front driving wheels while minimizing loss of traction and wheelspin. While this benefit is minimal under normal driving conditions, it would be very helpful if you hit a patch of very slippery road in bad weather or if you are driving fast through corners or accelerating from a stop. The problem is the price tag of about $2000+ installed.
Mini Mania LSD is $1395
http://new.minimania.com/web/Item/NMG1002/InvDetail.cfm
"This great race and street limited slip differential is a salisbury clutch type that insures smooth operation and superior responsiveness. Its small size and light weight add to its effectiveness! Can easily handle 250 horsepower. New carrier bearings available"
I'll see if I can get more info on this LSD.
#18
11-28-2003, 08:49 PM
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In a previous car I had a Kaaz Clutch type LSD. Unless you were really using it hard, i.e Auto-X, sprited street driving, the diff was really hard to live with in day to day life. The Clutch plaes make a very loud sound while turning at low speeds. It sounds almost like a bad CV joint, Clicking and popping. I resorted to using a bottle of Ford Friction modifier in the tranny when i replaced the fluid. That is another thing to consider with the clutch type units, you do need to perform regular fluid changes to flush the friction material particles out of the case. The friction modifier reduces the noise from the diff at low speeds and may also reduce the amount of force applied to th opposite wheel. Another thing, like any clutch, it can eventually wear out, requiring remova and replacement of the clutch packs. I do not know how long this will take. It could be many years down the road.
Overall, i really don't think i would spend more money than the Quaife to get a clutch type LSD. I don't think it is worth it. My $.02
Fred
Overall, i really don't think i would spend more money than the Quaife to get a clutch type LSD. I don't think it is worth it. My $.02
Fred
#19
12-03-2003, 09:50 PM
I emailed Mini Mania to get info on their various Limited Slip differentials and here is the reply from Ken Suzuki (thanks Ken)
Quote:
Thanks for your interest with Mini Mania and our products.
Here are the differences between the 'Clutch type' and Quaife 'Torsen' limited slips:
The clutch-type LSD (NMG1002) is probably the most common version of the limited slip differential. This type of LSD has all of the same components as an open differential, but it adds a spring pack and a set of clutches.
The spring pack pushes the side gears against the clutches, which are attached to the cage. Both side gears spin with the cage when both wheels are moving at the same speed, and the clutches aren't really needed -- the only time the clutches step in is when something happens to make one wheel spin faster than the other, as in a turn. The clutches fight this behavior, wanting both wheels to go the same speed. If one wheel wants to spin faster than the other, it must first overpower the clutch. The stiffness of the springs combined with the friction of the clutch determine how much torque it takes to overpower it.
In the situation where one drive wheel is on the ice and the other one has good traction: With this limited slip differential, even though the wheel on the ice is not able to transmit much torque to the ground, the other wheel will still get the torque it needs to move. The torque supplied to the wheel not on the ice is equal to the amount of torque it takes to overpower the clutches. The result is that you can move forward, although still not with the full power of your car.
The clutch type LSD is made especially for Mini Mania by a reputable UK company. This product carries our standard one year limited warranty.
The Quaife Torsen differential (NMG1005) is a purely mechanical device; it has no electronics, clutches or viscous fluids.
The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an open differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction.
However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero.
Quaife warranties their products with a Limited Lifetime Warranty, even when raced.
Let me know if you have any further questions.
Best regards,
Ken
Quote:
Thanks for your interest with Mini Mania and our products.
Here are the differences between the 'Clutch type' and Quaife 'Torsen' limited slips:
The clutch-type LSD (NMG1002) is probably the most common version of the limited slip differential. This type of LSD has all of the same components as an open differential, but it adds a spring pack and a set of clutches.
The spring pack pushes the side gears against the clutches, which are attached to the cage. Both side gears spin with the cage when both wheels are moving at the same speed, and the clutches aren't really needed -- the only time the clutches step in is when something happens to make one wheel spin faster than the other, as in a turn. The clutches fight this behavior, wanting both wheels to go the same speed. If one wheel wants to spin faster than the other, it must first overpower the clutch. The stiffness of the springs combined with the friction of the clutch determine how much torque it takes to overpower it.
In the situation where one drive wheel is on the ice and the other one has good traction: With this limited slip differential, even though the wheel on the ice is not able to transmit much torque to the ground, the other wheel will still get the torque it needs to move. The torque supplied to the wheel not on the ice is equal to the amount of torque it takes to overpower the clutches. The result is that you can move forward, although still not with the full power of your car.
The clutch type LSD is made especially for Mini Mania by a reputable UK company. This product carries our standard one year limited warranty.
The Quaife Torsen differential (NMG1005) is a purely mechanical device; it has no electronics, clutches or viscous fluids.
The Torsen (from Torque Sensing) works as an open differential when the amount of torque going to each wheel is equal. As soon as one wheel starts to lose traction, the difference in torque causes the gears in the Torsen differential to bind together. The design of the gears in the differential determines the torque bias ratio. For instance, if a particular Torsen differential is designed with a 5:1 bias ratio, it is capable of applying up to five times more torque to the wheel that has good traction.
However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero.
Quaife warranties their products with a Limited Lifetime Warranty, even when raced.
Let me know if you have any further questions.
Best regards,
Ken
#20
12-31-2003, 01:45 PM
> However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely,
> the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any
> torque to the other set of wheels.
So does this mean that if one tire is spinning on ice (i.e. more or less completely tractionless) while the other is on asphalt that a Torsen-type limited slip differential is useless? Or do by "completely" do you mean heavy body roll that puts the inside wheel in the air?
> the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any
> torque to the other set of wheels.
So does this mean that if one tire is spinning on ice (i.e. more or less completely tractionless) while the other is on asphalt that a Torsen-type limited slip differential is useless? Or do by "completely" do you mean heavy body roll that puts the inside wheel in the air?
#21
01-04-2004, 04:46 PM
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01-04-2004, 06:19 PM
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>>> However, if one set of wheels loses traction completely,
>>> the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any
>>> torque to the other set of wheels.
>>
>>So does this mean that if one tire is spinning on ice (i.e. more or less completely tractionless) while the other is on asphalt that a Torsen-type limited slip differential is useless? Or do by "completely" do you mean heavy body roll that puts the Their beauty is that they "cost" nothing to operate, unlike a vicous LSD. The vicous unit takes power from the driveline since fluid must be moved all the time.
If you goto the GRM MCS project page, they have an exploded view diagram of the Torsen for the Mini. You should be able to figure out how it works from that.
>>> the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any
>>> torque to the other set of wheels.
>>
>>So does this mean that if one tire is spinning on ice (i.e. more or less completely tractionless) while the other is on asphalt that a Torsen-type limited slip differential is useless? Or do by "completely" do you mean heavy body roll that puts the Their beauty is that they "cost" nothing to operate, unlike a vicous LSD. The vicous unit takes power from the driveline since fluid must be moved all the time.
If you goto the GRM MCS project page, they have an exploded view diagram of the Torsen for the Mini. You should be able to figure out how it works from that.
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