hey,

i was checking out http://www.johncooperworks.com

and it says that the tuning kits will be available for both Cooper and Cooper S on April 2nd nationwide! but it is over 6000 dollars and it only gets you to 200 hp...!!! that is absurd!!! using other tunin products u can prob get to 275 for 6000 dollars... lol

 

Im sure the price is such for 2 reasons.
1. Paying for the JCW label
2 The fact that the JCW kit is "covered" under warranty. (not that it matters, see numerous other posts re: mods and warranty issues) Does it matter? Hmmmmm...


His, Chile Red all over /Hers, EB UJ on top

 

I didn't see a USA price? I don't believe that MINI USA has announced pricing yet. I have been checking their website daily. I am hoping for better pricing in the US, but I am not hopeful. Randy, if your listening, you will have a lot of new customers once MINI USA gives us the bad news. Madness Intake and UUC cat-back will be where I will start.

 

I'm listening, and I'm here for you !

 

TwOMINIs,

You may be partially correct, but I've been thinking about this a lot and I think there is more to it. Here's my perspective.

First, I think one is paying for a lot of development effort. It's easy to look at the hardware and conclude it's too expensive, but I would guess far more engineering, development, and testing has gone into this upgrade than any other options in the marketplace. Consider that the kit is coming out many months after others have brought their products to market. I doubt this time was spent refining the glossy brochure. Undoubtedly this time was spent refining the design, testing its real world benefit (on the road, not just a dyno), and testing its longevity and its effect on the rest of the car's longevity.

Second, In order to satisfy BMW/MINI and maintain a factory warranty, this upgrade has certainly passed a level of scrutiny that no other package/mod in the marketplace could likely endure. For example, many ECU tuners are raising the rev limit. If the JCW package does this, I would believe the limit they have chosen is based on cooperative engineering with the manufacturer, has been proven both on the dyno and probably many thousands of on-road mile under varying conditions, and will not compromise my engine's life 10, 20, 30,000 miles from now. Others may have done a little dyno work, maybe hundreds of miles of on-road testing, but since they have no warranty responsibility they probably don't care what it does to my engine 20,000 miles from now.

Third, I think one must consider the quality of the parts. There are numerous vendors out there with very nice products, but take a look at the pictures of the JCW exhaust versus the Magnaflow (so beloved on this site). The magnaflow is a piece of hardware. The JCW is a piece of jewelry! Just from the pictures, I can tell you the JCW exhaust probably costs double to manufacture versus the Magna, and I anticipate it will fit and perform better than all the others. Now of course, the proof is in the pudding; so we'll see how it performs. Also, the one in-car video I've watched of the JCW in action showed it to be much quieter than any I've heard before. That can only come from thorough development effort.

lbboarderh2o,

Regarding the power, or lack of in the JCW upgrade. I think we need to really start looking at the full torque and power curves from these mods. The old saying is that the consumer buys horsepower but drives torque. From the dyno plots I've seen, the JCW makes more low to mid range torque than any other upgrade I've seen. It's this mid-range torque that makes a car so much more fun to drive on the street. Granted, if someone is after a purpose-built track car, top end is great. But in daily street driving, I don't want to drive my car at 6k-7k RPM all the time to get the performance out of it. HP is simply the mathematical product of torque and RPM. So I can do nothing more to the car than raise the rev limit and I can get a publishable HP improvement. But this doesn't add any real drivability improvement since it does nothing to change mid-range performance. The 200hp holy grail is a rather artificial number and means little to me. As everyone comes up with the mods that will reach 200hp on the dyno, the grail will become 220, then 240 etc. The fact the the JCW upgrade produces or only produces 200hp is largely irrelevent to me. My upgrade decisions will be based on how the mods improve my real-world, daily driving experience; and that will be found in the middle of the dyno graph, not the right margin.

Of course, some of this is educated speculation. And we won't really know how the JCW package does until the mags have reviewed it, and the early pioneering owners have bought it and driven it for a while. But I think it will prove to be a very nice package. And in a world where rally lights that are little more than extra high beams cost $600+ installed, and a simple roof rack is $400+ installed, I don't know how anyone can be surprised by the price tag of the dealer installed JCW upgrade.

My appoligies for the long-winded post, but I've been sittin' on this stuff for a while and had to finally chime in. If you've gotten this far, thanks.

Cheers,

James

 

Oh and lbboarderh2o, if it could even be done, I would be very affraid to own your proposed $6000, 275hp MINI. Given the current state of the MINI aftermarket and its developmental immaturity, there is no way that car would have any street driveability, reliability, or longevity.

But I wish you luck with it nonetheless. :smile: :smile: :smile:

James

 

If I had to spend $6000 more for my car
I wouldn't have gotten a Mini. It is just
a car.....

 

Mister S.
Terrific points.
Re: magnaflow vs jcworks exhaust... I agree 100%
I stopped by the dealer to talk today and he.... hemmed and hawed..... but gave me a price of $700 for the jcworks exhaust.
magnaflow @$600 vs jcworks @$700....for 1st impressions seems reasonable.
As i mentioned....this wednesday I should have better info on... @ least the exhaust piece.... of the jcworks upgrade puzzle.

BTW, I also had a chance to present your exhaust design to my good friend today...
I'll keep ya posted


Peace,
D

 

James,

Good points.

One comment struck a personal chord with me though - "Undoubtedly this time was spent refining the design, testing its real world benefit (on the road, not just a dyno), and testing its longevity and its effect on the rest of the car's longevity."

I have spent an innordinate amount of time and money with tesing products. That includes track development, dyno data, street driving, autocrossing, and fitment of everything (plus some things I've decided not to carry) I carry.

I just have decided this is a part of the cost of doing business, and I don't pass that on to my customers (but I'm not making any money because of it either).

The JCW exhaust looks just about exactly like the UUC system - just a note I thought I'd throw out there. The only difference is that it uses the entry and exit design from the muffler of the (gasp) Magnaflow.

If you have any other ideas on how to make the products I offer better, please feel free to contact me directly. I always appreciate further input and advice.

Thanks,
Randy
720-841-1002

 

>>[quote>>
>>Regarding the power, or lack of in the JCW upgrade. I think we need to really start looking at the full torque and power curves from these mods. The old saying is that the consumer buys horsepower but drives torque. From the dyno plots I've seen, the JCW makes more low to mid range torque than any other upgrade I've seen. It's this mid-range torque that makes a car so much more fun to drive on the street. Granted, if someone is after a purpose-built track car, top end is great. But in daily street driving, I don't want to drive my car at 6k-7k RPM all the time to get the performance out of it. >>

I was under the same impression about the JCW upgrade, unitl I read this review at: http://www.4car.co.uk

I have second thoughts now

j
:???:

 

Randy,

Certainly my intent was not to point criticism at you, but rather to try to explain why the JCW costs what it does. If I offended you, please accept my apologies and know that it was not my intent. I've said before that the service you are providing to this community is of tremendous value, and in numerous posts I've pointed readers in your direction. If you intend to make your living doing this, I do hope that you get the opportunity to recoup your investment of both time and money. However, I do think I can justify my comments in the context they were delivered.

First, at this point you are still a reseller, selling other's products that you have tested and approved; not an OEM. I know you have some proprietary things in the works and the fact that you don't have them for sale yet only proves my point. You are taking your time and doing it right, rather than rushing something to market with insufficient development time. JCW has done the same thing, but they undoubtedly had a pre-US, maybe pre-Euro production head start.

Second, when you eventually assemble and market your complete "package", I have no doubt it will be a well designed, well tested system. And I'm sure it will be significantly less expensive than the JCW kit. But there has always been a premium to pay for a factory approved, warranted performance package; whether it's a Dinan BMW, an AMG Mercedes, or a Ruf Porsche. If you took your future system and jumped through all the hoops required by BMW/MINI to get it factory approved and warranted, your's would be $6k too.

You must also admit that in spite of the aggressive but thorough efforts of you and those like you, the aftermarket tuning of MINIs is still in it's infancy, and there are those out there who are marketing less than refined mods; no doubt some of the items you have chosen not to carry. At its release next month, the JCW package will represent the most refined total package for the MINI to date; and will be the only with a factory blessing.

As for other ideas, I am an engineer, an inventor, a tinkerer, and a fanatic for anything with wheels. I have so many ideas I can't sleep some nights. I have ideas that could keep us both busy for the next five years. I would be more than happy to talk MINI with you anytime. I sent you my telephone number a day or two ago in a PM. Feel free to call.

And incidentally, I submitted the final details of my MCS order today. I should have my car by the last week of May or the first week of June. Then I can start doing instead of just talking. First order of business will be springs and rear swaybar from MCM.

Very best regards,

James

 

here is an excerpt from that article on 4car.com

quite interesting if you ask me....

hmmmm.... so the change is very subtle unless ur at 7000 rpm and the exhaust and supercharger whine is increased. overall they say it is not worth it and only for serious tuners who really need the performance! i think ill just stick w/ stock for now and mayb get a few simple upgrades.

im just gonna buy the front and rear badges and then ill have a John Cooper Works cooper!
that silver cooper does like nice, clean cut... it needs painted wheelarches and a stripe though

_________________
2003 Mini Cooper S. Dark Silver. Black Top. Lapis Blue Leather Interior. Premium, Sport, Cold Weather.

Let's Not Overcompensate for Other Shortcomings.
Let's Motor

 

Did you skip the part where they said they drove the car with three passengers plus a bunch of camera equipment in the back? "added up to well over 50 stone on board". I checked the conversion. 50 stone = 700 lbs!!!!!

How about the part where they said 0-60 times were nearly a full second faster. Taking a second off the time of an already quick car is not subtle.

Seems like there's some inconsistencies in their review. I'll wait for reviews from the bigger name publications, and even better, MCO members who buy the JCW.

James

 

ill stickw/ my front and rear badges for now

 

James,

I appreciate the explanation. I didn't find your former comment offensive, I just wanted to let you (and others) know that I definitely am not taking the typical route of getting product to market first if that product may not be the best solution. That route includes all of the above methodology as far as development goes.

I totally agree that MINI tuning is in its infancy - and that's what is very exciting. I have been on the ground floor for most if not all of the developments.

I'll definitely be calling you next week to discuss some of the ideas you have. I totally respect your enthusiasm.

Some more thoughts I had about the kit after thinking about it more:

With this kit, the interesting part will be if JCW offers the parts separately, and what the individual pricing will be. Then it may be tougher for them to sell it as a kit for the full 6K. From what Dennis mentioned, the Exhaust may only be around $700 - but that is very sketchy at best for a real numebr (and the product may not even be the JCW exhaust).

Here would be some reasonable prices, then we can determine just what the cost of being factory blessed really costs:

Exhaust $900
Pulley $200
ECU $400-700
Drop-in filter $60
Head $600 or so

Somewhere around $2300-2500. If the kit really does cost $6000, even with the development costs, it is still overpriced in my opinion (and take that for what it's worth).

Keep the input coming!

Randy

 

thanks for the info randy...

but doesnt the jcw kit have a whole new supercharger? i may not know what im takin about

 

Randy,

I guess you aren't able to sleep either!

We'll all have to wait for the pricing to come out; but in the article referenced above, the UK cost is quoted as 3010 british pounds plus 500 pounds installation. That is about $4500 plus $750 installation (assuming comensurate US pricing). So in your comparison it's really $2500 vs. $4500. Still a big difference, granted; a $2000 warranty. I also anticipate early buyers will be subject to the same dealer gouging that many early MINI buyers suffered. $4500 kit maybe, but some dealers will no doubt charge thousands for the install. To paraphrase PT Barnam, there's one born every minute.

I too am hopefull they will offer pieces individually. The relatively quiet exhaust is of great interest to me. Also, I haven't seen anyone else (in the US) offering a better supercharger; though I don't know what you have up your sleeve.

A thought just occured. Has anyone inquired with Classic Auto Campus? Maybe they will be able to order the kit or pieces and offer them at the MCO discount.

Okay, I think I'm tired enough to sleep.

I really look forward to finally speaking with you.

James

 

lbboarderh2o,

You are correct. The supercharger has internal mods/improvements in addition to the pulley. So that should be worth another $500 to $1000. So we could be talking about a $1000 warranty.

Nice catch.

James

 

Hey Randy, a little OT, but are you going to be selling the Head that you are testing for around $600?! I would have expected more but I love that number!!, it'll just be another thing to save up for!!

 

>>Did you skip the part where they said they drove the car with three passengers plus a bunch of camera equipment in the back? "added up to well over 50 stone on board". I checked the conversion. 50 stone = 700 lbs!!!!! :smile: Minus the extra ballast, and during a blast round Goodwood, the JCW car came into its own: the extra torque was easily discernable, giving greater in-gear flexibility and working to better advantage with the six-speed transmission, though in terms of out-and-out speed, the difference only really hits you around the 7000rpm mark. I don't think the review was inconsistent--you just have to read it line by line

I also "assume" there is a reason this publisher was the first to review, not one, but two of JCW cars. Maybe they are one of the bigger publishers, just not stateside?

I wonder...........................

Anyways, the review is different than some of the comments made by JCW owners, so I agree-we must wait to hear more.

J

 

4 car.co.uk is quite a big name in the uk, they had a TV series that did pretty well..

I did another trackday in my Hartge Cooper S yesterday and it has simliar characteristics to the review given for the JCW conversion..

It has notible more torque lower in the rev range but come into it's own over 6000rpm. Its so much faster than the standard Cooper S.

I reakon uk mag EVO should have a review on the JCW in their next issue, should be a good review and offer a comparison with the Hartge upgrade as their own Cooper S has been Hartge tuned..

 

two notes:

the supercharger mod can be as simple as having the pulley fitted, or that and gearing down the waterpump, and/or porting the intake and exhuat of the blower.

the head mod could be porting/flow testing, larger valves and/or a cam. (here is what the JCW site has to say: "Two years of cylinder head development, using full 3D computer aided design (CAD) were initially needed to get the performance John Cooper Works demanded. Using this CAD data, the heads are fully CNC machined. This ensures the highest standards of accuracy, repeatability and performance.&quot

(For kicks, I can say exactly the same about the P&D pulley, except the 3 year part)

Statistical data taken from the production of many cylinder heads and blocks enabled the compression ratio to be optimised within the limits of performance, engine calibration and production tolerances.


with either, the options included would affect the price. I doubt you would get a ported, valved and cammed head for $600, for example.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I would expect there to be a core charge for the head and blower: they will want your old ones back.

the other mods are pretty easy to do comparative pricing on.

From what practically eveyone has found, the car does benefit from an intake, yet amazingly, the JCW mod uses the stock setup (maybe they add a filter element?)

 

the component I would buy in an instant is the chip

 

>>the component I would buy in an instant is the chip

Totally agree with you here. This is one area that JCW has a big advantage as BMW would give them everything they need to know about the computer to map everything for the mods that JCW has done.

Paul

 

6k / 20k = 30%