Drivetrain How about a different SC?
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
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From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by FlynHawaiian
Well the chambers inside the engine can only except a finite amount of air. Even if it's compressed to a degree, there is a finite amount. Something has to give. Meaning more boost.
I still think there has to be another answer then throwing another roots S/C at the mini. Maybe I'm the odd man out. I would rather see the whipple. O_o
I still think there has to be another answer then throwing another roots S/C at the mini. Maybe I'm the odd man out. I would rather see the whipple. O_o
Any compressor will take a redesign of the induction path. The M62 eliminates that.
I can't see any other design coming close in price/performance.
All the twinscrews are Lysholms...
or however it's spelled. The reason you don't see one is they're frigging expensive. Would you rather pay over $6 grand for a twinscrew or less than $4 grand for a 62? Both M7 and WMS looked at it, and abandoned the effort over cost issues. Sheeze the difference in price would be a new worked over head! Then who knows, the 62/head combo might (and I'd guess would) do even more for you than the twinscrew.
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,149
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Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
or however it's spelled. The reason you don't see one is they're frigging expensive. Would you rather pay over $6 grand for a twinscrew or less than $4 grand for a 62? Both M7 and WMS looked at it, and abandoned the effort over cost issues. Sheeze the difference in price would be a new worked over head! Then who knows, the 62/head combo might (and I'd guess would) do even more for you than the twinscrew.
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,196
Likes: 0
From: Hampton, VA
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
or however it's spelled. The reason you don't see one is they're frigging expensive. Would you rather pay over $6 grand for a twinscrew or less than $4 grand for a 62? Both M7 and WMS looked at it, and abandoned the effort over cost issues. Sheeze the difference in price would be a new worked over head! Then who knows, the 62/head combo might (and I'd guess would) do even more for you than the twinscrew.
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
Matt
interestingly enough, Peter and I were talking about this very same thing this evening. I think the twinscrew has missed it's market window. The rights are still controlled by one company, so besides manufacturing cost issues, there's licensing fees. Meanwhile, turbo development has been going ahead full tilt, and the turbo penalty is getting to be less and less. The efficiency advantage of the turbo, along with less parasitic losses, may effectively shoot the the twinscrew in the head....
It's the route I'll take. Head, cam, M62 that is.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
I think it all comes back to what one wants from their MINI - that is the desired endpoint or goal. Having as a platform a short wheelbase, FWD, and a small 4-banger, my obession was not going to be max power. I've been wanting 250 or so hp from the very begining, and the M62 is the ticket!
Back to the Roots... I recall it's main virtues being cost, as already mentioned, and its delivery of low-end torque - which of course we really desire. I remember reading this here on NAM, and other sources. I just found a few links to other forums where the Roots / Eaton is the choice for low-end power. And Matt, since you are a Ford guy, here's a nice read for ya
.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._1/ai_88674143
The M62 is just what the doctor ordered
.
Back to the Roots... I recall it's main virtues being cost, as already mentioned, and its delivery of low-end torque - which of course we really desire. I remember reading this here on NAM, and other sources. I just found a few links to other forums where the Roots / Eaton is the choice for low-end power. And Matt, since you are a Ford guy, here's a nice read for ya
.http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl..._1/ai_88674143
The M62 is just what the doctor ordered
.
So here there are differing opinions..
with the AMG crowd claiming screw is always better than roots, and Ford types that use lots of roots saying that the roots comes on a bit sooner, with neither claim quantified. Sounds a lot like mod debates here!
Also, keep in mind that most of the Roots appications (at least the ford ones) run much lower boosts than we do, and the heating of the aircharge increases dramatically with the Roots as boost rises...
But even the ford guy admits that they will leave the roots behind. I'd guess in the next five years or so... And as usual for American car companies, a couple years after the competition has already made the change!
But in looking at the thermodynamics of the systems, I don't see where Spruill comes up with his claim. I wish the article had the actual data. Or is it just backing the horse that you bought?
Matt
Sounds a lot like mod debates here!Also, keep in mind that most of the Roots appications (at least the ford ones) run much lower boosts than we do, and the heating of the aircharge increases dramatically with the Roots as boost rises...
But even the ford guy admits that they will leave the roots behind. I'd guess in the next five years or so... And as usual for American car companies, a couple years after the competition has already made the change!
But in looking at the thermodynamics of the systems, I don't see where Spruill comes up with his claim. I wish the article had the actual data. Or is it just backing the horse that you bought?
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Just trying to appeal to the Ford guy in you!
Seriously though, I've read several times over, including within that link, that the Roots comes-on a bit sooner than even the screw. I know it's easy for us to feel like we are "settling" in some respects, and while I would have loved to have seen the twin screw come to fruition for us, for all practical purposes, the M62 just fits the bill so wonderfully!
You bring-up a good point that we will run higher boost levels though. All the more reason to do an exceptional job at cooling the charged air. As you might remember, I plan to relegate my MCS to Fall & Winter duty only - think cool ambient temps. Along with with a free-flowing system, I'm really excited to see what the M62 can deliver!
Seriously though, I've read several times over, including within that link, that the Roots comes-on a bit sooner than even the screw. I know it's easy for us to feel like we are "settling" in some respects, and while I would have loved to have seen the twin screw come to fruition for us, for all practical purposes, the M62 just fits the bill so wonderfully!
You bring-up a good point that we will run higher boost levels though. All the more reason to do an exceptional job at cooling the charged air. As you might remember, I plan to relegate my MCS to Fall & Winter duty only - think cool ambient temps. Along with with a free-flowing system, I'm really excited to see what the M62 can deliver!
What's a bit?
2 RPM, 200 RPM or 2000 RPM?
Personally, I think the turbos will own the world shortly. Twin screw is a good idea, but late to the party.
The M62 is going to be a gas because it's ease of integration, cost, stealth, and like for just the same reasons Ford went with a roots on the Ford GT, it does enough of what it's supposed to do to get the job done.
Matt
Personally, I think the turbos will own the world shortly. Twin screw is a good idea, but late to the party.
The M62 is going to be a gas because it's ease of integration, cost, stealth, and like for just the same reasons Ford went with a roots on the Ford GT, it does enough of what it's supposed to do to get the job done.
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Yeah, as I said in some other thread yesterday, a stand alone turbo would be my first choice. And while I think it might happen, I would be pleasantly surprised if it were CARB certified - a must for me, and probably most in CA. It would probably cost twice as much as the M62 though...
I'll save the massive power for a car that can better utilize it. I still don't know what that will be yet...
I'll save the massive power for a car that can better utilize it. I still don't know what that will be yet...
