Yesterday, I had a Magnaflow cat-back exhuast installed on my 2003 MINI Cooper S. My car already had:

Helix/P&D 15% Pulley and an MTH chip:
www.helix13.com/products/intake.cfm

This yielded 13 whp over the baseline.

MTH "chip" flashed through the diagnostic port:
www.mth-powerchip.de/e_index.htm

This yielded 4 whp over the baseline.

I didn't have a chance to dyno with the stock-size pulley (haven't gotten mine yet) and I kept the MTH programming in the ECU. Baseline for yesterday, therefore included the pulley and chip:

Pulley + Chip = 159.7 whp, 146.9 wlb-ft.

Helix installed the Magnaflow exhaust:
www.magnaflow.com/02product/cat-backs/minicooper.htm

Pulley + Chip + Exhaust = 165.0 whp, 149.1 wlb-ft.

So, the exhaust yielded about 5.3 whp, WAY less than Magnaflow's quoted 20 hp gain. The exhaust made almost no difference whatsoever (curves overlapping) until 6000 rpm, where the Magnaflow helped top end breathing a bit.

The sound is loud, but not as bad as I thought it would be. At idle and cruise, the change compared to stock is pretty slight. Venting the sunroof reduces the sound a bit. I did some cruising at 60, 70, 80, and 90 mph in 6th (closed test track of course ) and at no point was the drone uncomfortable. Louder, yes. Unacceptable, no.

Fit and finish of the Magnaflow is quite good, but I'm still scratching my head about the lack of smooth transitions between the sections. The exhaust runs into a proverbial brick wall as it hits the "power loop". The tips are VERY large, but they seem nicely centered and I didn't notice any rubbing issues.

Yesterday, jlm happened to stop by Helix's shop with his Rogue dual-outlet exhuast, and Helix's own MCS with their prototype exhaust was there as well. The Magnaflow was much louder than either of those exhausts. I'm working on coaxing my scanner out of retirement, so I'll post the plots when I get it working.

 

Great info Andy!

Do another run after 500 miles or so, and the numbers get better - I think due to the break-in of the mufflers. The weird thing is the sound actually mellows after the mufflers burn out.

I'm wondering how much of an affect already having the pulley has on the outright numbers of the Magnaflow (or any other exhaust).

Can't wait to see the scanner numbers - I'm still trying to get one. I talked with cheese about the pocket logger and I'm looking into that as well. I want to make sure I get the best one the first time so I don't end up buying three or four!

What were the operating temps on the before and after runs with the Magnaflow?

Randy

 

Here's the plot:



I believe coolant temps were in the 185-195 F range for both runs.

 

I'm more confused that ever..:smile:
(most will agree so what else is new )
It's obvious that nothing is ...truly obvious :smile:
The drone is loud ...even when u crack the window :smile:

It's a personal choice ..I know I know...:smile:


_________________
2002 MCS:PS/B, w/Lapis Int.

 

I'm curious as heck now as well! If I get the Madness intake (just ordered it from Randy) and get the pulley, maybe I don't need an exhaust. I have to admit, I really like the stock exhaust. IMO, it's the best looking by far and the sound is pretty good and nonexistent on long highway cruises. So if I could make my MINI have a really nice extra "boost" with the intake, pulley and maybe ECU, I'd love to just do that. Also, of the above, the exhaust may be the most expensive and may give the least "boost" in torque - especially low RPM power.

 

You guys speak for me as well. I've heard in mentioned several times before that the performance gains are not strictly addative and the dynos seem to bear this out.
With every additional mod you get even fewer returns.

So I think I'm similar to D in that I'd like HP gains without an excessive amount of noise. With that in mind let me add one item to D's list,

madness-intake, quicksilver header, throttle body, ecu

I would suspect at least that the intake/exhaust combo would be most additive since they attack the problem from different ends (so to speak). Based upon what Randy has said and what the Madness site has to say about the header, you could in principle still pick up the same hp as the QS exhaust without the noise by using the header and the stock exhaust. Add the throttle body and the ECU and you have reasonably easy mods that should not void the warranty. Don't know what the overall hp would be but I would guess: intake 8 + header 10 + TB 3 + ECU 4 = 25whp.

Any thoughts?

Cheers,

Chuck

 

>>...............maybe I don't need an exhaust.>>

greatgro,

I've mentioned this in a previous thread, but no one seemed to pick up on it....??
In an article about the Hartge 210hp upgrade for the S, the statement was made that the the worst restriction in the stock exhaust system was the ceramic catalytic converter. Didn't say how they knew this, but if its true, a change to a header with a metalic racing cat might provide better hp increases than the aftermarket exhausts. And you'd get to keep your stock resonator/muffler systems fit, finish, and sound.

The London header Randy sells looks beautiful, retains a convincingly stock appearance and O2 hookups, and bolts straight up to the factory cat back system. It's pricey at $1300, but if the results are good, might present a better value than the cat back systems at half the price.

I for one would really like to see someone with all these parts on hand and all this dyno time try it out. Randy??? I don't have much influence here though, as I don't even have my S yet, so I'm not yet a potential "paying customer".

Something to think about. :smile:

James

 

cdconsor,

I guess great (or dimented) minds think the same!

James

 

>>cdconsor,
>>
>>I guess great (or dimented) minds think the same!
>>
>>James

My thoughts exactly

Chuck

 

cd,
just to update my list/position....
the accurate "personal" list for me is....as follows:
qs exhaust (to install this wed), air-intake, rims, tires and rear sway bar (all currently installed)
i'm not warantee... liable..... at this point.
with the addition of heads,ecu upgrades, pulley's...the warantee line is truly crossed. i'm not convenced/ready for that quite yet.

peace,
d

 

>>with the addition of heads,ecu upgrades, pulley's...the warantee line is truly crossed. i'm not convenced/ready for that quite yet.
>>
>>peace,
>>d

neither am I. I suppose if I was fearless like Randy seems to be than I would go for the pulley rather than the intake. So at this point, what I am really trying to ascertain is whether it is better to go for the header or the exhaust based upon the HP gain / noise control criteria. I think the header and the exhaust are in competition with each other for hp gain so doing both seems like kind of a waste unless you want to get every last pony out of your engine and dont care about the cost. In a similar way I think the intake and the pulley compete with each other but I am not ready to pay through the nose for the JCW kit nor am I brave enough to immediately void the warranty by installing the pulley.

I could be way off base about 'competing parts' and I'm sure someone will let me know if I am.

Cheers,

Chuck

 

Based on my results so far, the pulley offers a bang-for-buck WAY beyond any other mod. I'll be trying out a few intakes soon to see if there are any additional gains to be had. I can't imagine picking up more than a few more whp.

 

>>Based on my results so far, the pulley offers a bang-for-buck WAY beyond any other mod. I'll be trying out a few intakes soon to see if there are any additional gains to be had. I can't imagine picking up more than a few more whp.

Right. I bet its probably pretty quiet too. Now does that bang/buck claim include the labor involved for did you do it yourself? However, for those of us lesser-mortals not quite ready to do the pulley upgrade (yet) and still looking for some hp and torque gains an intake seems like the best way to attack that problem. Personally I'd really like the pulley instead of the madness intake because then I could also have a strut brace, but that warranty looms large.

and I dont mean to hijack the thread but anyone have an opinion on header vs. exhaust?

 

>> Don't know what the overall hp would be but I would guess: intake 8 + header 10 + TB 3 + ECU 4 = 25whp.
>>


Don't forget what you wrote just above that - horsepower gains are NOT additive. So if the individual parts equal 25 they won't together. And you can be SURE that the ECU WILL void the warranty. Afterall, the ECU controls all of the engine parameters so if you change the software and then burn out the engine...tough luck.

The PULLEY does by far seem like NOT ONLY the GREATEST increase in horses and torque, but also the most USEABLE gains as the power curves expand down to the left of the graph giving more umph at lower RPMs. According to Andy's dyno chart, the S will pull at 2400 RPMs after the pulley like the stock S does at 3000 RPMs. That's a pretty good gain. Then at higher RPMs, you'll be getting up to 4 more pounds of boost for an extra 15 or so HP and torque. Add another mod or two and that puppy should move nicely.

Like Andy said, the pulley also seems to be the greatest bang for the buck. It's only $200 and even though the installation takes 4 or 5 hours by someone who knows what they are doing, that's only around $250-300 at a place such as Helix here in the East. Total cost of pulley is only $450-500. Pulley & Madness will probably give 20 horses, an increase supercharger whine but no increase in exhaust noise, give a good boost of power - including noticeably more pull at low RPMs and only cost around $700.

I'll be installing the Madness probably within 2 weeks - I have my first service (10.2k miles) probably on Friday. Then if I have received the Madness yet, I'll install it on the first nice day. After that I'm awfully tempted to add the pulley next.

Question for Randy - how many hours does the throttle body take to install. B/c if I have the Pulley done, I may want to get the throttle body done and installed at the same time.

Just my 2 cents (which may not even be worth that much!)

 

I'd wait on the ECU chips anyway b/c they're currently a work in progress. With the competition out there, I'll bet that in a year you can get a 10 or so HP gain for $500 while now you may pay more for some and they seem to only be giving a couple of horses.

Just more of my 2 cents.....

 

My numbers were:

Stock: 144.1 whp / 129.8 lb-ft
Chip: 148.7 whp / 135.4 lb-ft
Chip + Pulley: 161.7 whp / 148.9 lb-ft
Chip + Pulley + Exhaust: 165.0 whp / 149.1 lb-ft

The MTH chip that I have is flashed through the diagnostic port, so it can be returned to stock for dealer service. Takes 6 minutes to switch between stock and chipped programs. Helix Minisports installed the pulley and exhaust. Even with installation, the pulley costs less than the exhaust does even without installation!

 

While most mods add HP and a few lbs of torque, the Pulley mod seems to add the same or MORE torque than horsepower! I think that's all our kind of MOD!

Also, after discussing the pulley on the phone with Randy, and now seeing that the JCW kit comes with a 15% reduction pulley, I'm pretty confident that the S can certainly handle this extra boost and was probably designed for such an upgrade.

 

>>>> Don't know what the overall hp would be but I would guess: intake 8 + header 10 + TB 3 + ECU 4 = 25whp.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Don't forget what you wrote just above that - horsepower gains are NOT additive. So if the individual parts equal 25 they won't together.

I tried to underestimate based upon my assumption. If I used the individual quoted numbers I'd get. intake 7-9 + header 12 + TB 5-10 + ECU 5-7 = 29 - 38 additional whp.

>>And you can be SURE that the ECU WILL void the warranty. Afterall, the ECU controls all of the engine parameters so if you change the software and then burn out the engine...tough luck.

My dealer said specifically that if the ECU came from a reputable tuner that it would not void the warranty. But the pulley was a definate deal breaker.

>>The PULLEY does by far seem like NOT ONLY the GREATEST increase in horses and torque, but also the most USEABLE gains as the power curves expand down to the left of the graph giving more umph at lower RPMs. According to Andy's dyno chart, the S will pull at 2400 RPMs after the pulley like the stock S does at 3000 RPMs. That's a pretty good gain. Then at higher RPMs, you'll be getting up to 4 more pounds of boost for an extra 15 or so HP and torque. Add another mod or two and that puppy should move nicely.

I'd love to but again there is that pesky warranty.

>>
>>Like Andy said, the pulley also seems to be the greatest bang for the buck. It's only $200 and even though the installation takes 4 or 5 hours by someone who knows what they are doing, that's only around $250-300 at a place such as Helix here in the East. Total cost of pulley is only $450-500. Pulley & Madness will probably give 20 horses, an increase supercharger whine but no increase in exhaust noise, give a good boost of power - including noticeably more pull at low RPMs and only cost around $700.

If its really only $700 total then screw the warranty (well maybe). I thought it would be more like 2k.

 

Sorry Cdconsor. Didn't realize you already underestimated the numbers. Is it true that the throttle body can add 5-10 horses all by itself????

>>
>>If its really only $700 total then screw the warranty (well maybe). I thought it would be more like 2k.
>>

I know - that's what I'm saying! An air intake and pulley would give me a lot of what I want! More low RPM torque. A very good amount of horses and torque and more supercharger whine and very low cost (~$700).

At the very least, it's got to be the best bang for the buck. It should give at least 18-20 horses which could be as litlle as $35 per horse!

 

What performance mods can be made and keep the car in stock class for autocrossing?I've heard an intake and throttle body would move the car to modified class.Does the pulley and new chip change me to modified class.I have a Quicksilver muffler as I know it doesn't change the class.

 

>>What performance mods can be made and keep the car in stock class for autocrossing?I've heard an intake and throttle body would move the car to modified class.Does the pulley and new chip change me to modified class.I have a Quicksilver muffler as I know it doesn't change the class.>>>>

I don't autoX but my brother does. I'm pretty sure both the intake and exhaust WON'T affect class but most everything else will. Not sure though. THe intake and exhuast don't affect class b/c they do very little to enhance the type of driving that's done for autoX, I think.

But pulleys, chips, sway bars, brakes, possibly throttle body would have a huge impact IMO.

 

Here's a boost plot:

 

>>Is it true that the throttle body can add 5-10 horses all by itself????

that's what it says on the mini-madness website (or at least last time I checked). but I'm guessing, like everything else, that these numbers reflect the presence of this, and only this, mod.

Cheers,

Chuck

 

>>>>Is it true that the throttle body can add 5-10 horses all by itself????
>>
>>that's what it says on the mini-madness website (or at least last time I checked). but I'm guessing, like everything else, that these numbers reflect the presence of this, and only this, mod.
>>

Good point. Also some of the manufacturers and distributors (other than Randy of course) tend to inflate the numbers as well. I wonder how important Randy thinks the throttle body is...

 

I still haven't figured out why but with the Gtech Pro
on the same road, pretty much the same temp, my
HP numbers were down??? but I recorded my best 0-60
time??? My car was rear ended so it will be a while before
I can re-test. The air temp was also about the same on
both occasions.
I wonder if the ECU, over time, adapts and actually lowers
its 'output.' I don't have a real understanding of how the
ECU works but understand what it does in general terms.
There were probably about 700 miles put on the car between
runs....with 2 track days in there.
I am also wondering if my 0-60 times were better because
I adapted to the Gtech Pro. The first time I used it I watched
it alot and wasn't focused. The hp numbers concern me though.
I re-weighed the car the second time as well...it was about
100 lbs. lighter. Any thoughts??

I forgot to mention above here that this was post Magnaflow
on the second runs....first runs with BMP intake alone.
2nd with BMP Magnaflow...