Drivetrain BMP Intake vs. Mini-Madness/Rouge Intake
#1
02-23-2003, 08:33 PM
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#2
02-24-2003, 05:54 AM
OK. Here's my 2 cents:
I think you're making a much bigger deal out of this than need be. You've started another thread about the cheapest way to get to 200 hp. Considering that even the cheapest route for 200hp is going to cost 2.5-3k, I don't understand why the $80 price difference between the two intakes is such a concern. The intake is certainly important b/c it is the best bang for the buck - the cheapest and easiest way to increase hp. The Madness intake at $240 with an average hp increase from independent dynos testing is probably about 8hp. That's $30 per horsepower. THe BMP at $170 and 4 hp is $42.50 per horsepower. So not only is the Madness more power for the intake buck, but it's the cheapest thing you can do to add horsepower. Even the best exhaust the Magnaflow is $50-60 per horsepower. So the Madness intake seems like the sure way to go for me. Now if the intake were to be your ONLY mod, then well it's not that important. Maybe $170 versus $240 is a big deal since it's your only mod. Also 4hp or 8hp what's the difference especially if you like the look and sound of the BMP better.
But if you're really serious about hitting 200hp, what's an extra $80? That'll give you 4 more horses at only $20 a horse! That's THREE TIMES the bang for the buck as any other mod out there.
The other thing to consider is once you do add a bunch of mods on, the intake won't be responsible for as much power. For axample, if you add a bunch of stuff and get your MINI to 200hp, the BMP intake may now only be responsible for 2 horses while the Madness might still be accountable for 5 or 6. Also, if you are serious about hitting 200hp with the least cost and the least likelihood of voiding the warranty then you'd better get every ounce of HP out of that intake. THat seems to be not only the cheapest but the safest thing you can do.
If you are SERIOUS about turning your MINI into a 200hp machine, I don't think which intake requires several threads. You'll have much BIGGER and more important (and costly) decisions to make like headers, throttle bodies, exhuasts, ECU programming, supercharger pulleys, etc...
In other words, the intake is the tip of the iceberg. Don't sweat this one too much otherwise you'll never make it!
I think you're making a much bigger deal out of this than need be. You've started another thread about the cheapest way to get to 200 hp. Considering that even the cheapest route for 200hp is going to cost 2.5-3k, I don't understand why the $80 price difference between the two intakes is such a concern. The intake is certainly important b/c it is the best bang for the buck - the cheapest and easiest way to increase hp. The Madness intake at $240 with an average hp increase from independent dynos testing is probably about 8hp. That's $30 per horsepower. THe BMP at $170 and 4 hp is $42.50 per horsepower. So not only is the Madness more power for the intake buck, but it's the cheapest thing you can do to add horsepower. Even the best exhaust the Magnaflow is $50-60 per horsepower. So the Madness intake seems like the sure way to go for me. Now if the intake were to be your ONLY mod, then well it's not that important. Maybe $170 versus $240 is a big deal since it's your only mod. Also 4hp or 8hp what's the difference especially if you like the look and sound of the BMP better.
But if you're really serious about hitting 200hp, what's an extra $80? That'll give you 4 more horses at only $20 a horse! That's THREE TIMES the bang for the buck as any other mod out there.
The other thing to consider is once you do add a bunch of mods on, the intake won't be responsible for as much power. For axample, if you add a bunch of stuff and get your MINI to 200hp, the BMP intake may now only be responsible for 2 horses while the Madness might still be accountable for 5 or 6. Also, if you are serious about hitting 200hp with the least cost and the least likelihood of voiding the warranty then you'd better get every ounce of HP out of that intake. THat seems to be not only the cheapest but the safest thing you can do.
If you are SERIOUS about turning your MINI into a 200hp machine, I don't think which intake requires several threads. You'll have much BIGGER and more important (and costly) decisions to make like headers, throttle bodies, exhuasts, ECU programming, supercharger pulleys, etc...
In other words, the intake is the tip of the iceberg. Don't sweat this one too much otherwise you'll never make it!
#3
02-24-2003, 06:00 AM
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#4
02-24-2003, 10:12 AM
>>Just wait for the JCW upgrade to come out in a couple more months and you will get to 200+ hp and still keep your warrenty. Thant's my plans. But I still like the BMP more than the Rouge.
>>>
Not for nothing, but if the guy is concerned about the $80 difference in intakes, I don't think he's going to be willing to dish over $5-6k for the JCW kit.
Another idea for those thinking of the JCW kit - it MAY be cheaper to sell your current MINI and order a new one with the kit installed at the factory. Considering how much you get with the S versus the Cooper in addition to just horsepower for only $3000, I can't imagine the kit would cost much more as an option. If the difference between retro-fitting and ordering new is $2-3k, not only could you save money by ordering a new one, but you'd be getting a BRAND NEW CAR again with the swap. Just some food for thought...
Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
>>>
Not for nothing, but if the guy is concerned about the $80 difference in intakes, I don't think he's going to be willing to dish over $5-6k for the JCW kit.
Another idea for those thinking of the JCW kit - it MAY be cheaper to sell your current MINI and order a new one with the kit installed at the factory. Considering how much you get with the S versus the Cooper in addition to just horsepower for only $3000, I can't imagine the kit would cost much more as an option. If the difference between retro-fitting and ordering new is $2-3k, not only could you save money by ordering a new one, but you'd be getting a BRAND NEW CAR again with the swap. Just some food for thought...
Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
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02-24-2003, 06:56 PM
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#6
02-24-2003, 07:27 PM
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>>
>>Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
I did try both and found here in South Florida that there is a difference in the HP. I actually found that the BMP has more. I like the look of the BMP and the sound of the supercharger to. Also I have found with Rogue system being sealed from the bonnet, it is really mimicking the same stock air box. The only difference between the stock and Rogue is the cone filter and the size of the box. It is still a sealed system,and it still gets all its air through the snorkel. The volume has not changed. With the BMP you do get some heat intrusion but that quickly goes away when you are moving. How many cold air intakes have you seen that are sealed?? Look at the K&N systems, not just for the MINI but most all of their's are open cone type intakes. And the quicker you go you produce more of an airflow, even if it is 90 degrees outside and when you are moving the temp is not that much greater the the outside temp. The BMP being open in the rear of the shield then has a lot more air to bring in through the intake because it is open. That to me says you will produce more HP. Increased Airflow + fuel= Additional HP. I am an engineer by trade and the way I look at it its obvious to me which one is better. This is just my opinion. Get which ever one you think fits you and makes you
that is what I did. That's why I chose the BMP. I know alot of people think the Rouge is better and that's fine, it maybe where they live. But a dyno here and a dyno in the Midwest are in to different climates and the HP will be different no matter what they say. I think that the real issue for additional HP is with the intercooler. Cooling that is what you want to do to make additional HP in a hot climate. The Alta system seems to be the way to go. Spraying a mist of water over the intercooler will make a big change in the HP. Good Luck and when I reach the 200 hp goal it will be with a BMP intake. Remember one thing here in SoFlo we don't have winter. It is hot 9 months out of the year. So we need all the cool air we can get.
_________________
>>Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
I did try both and found here in South Florida that there is a difference in the HP. I actually found that the BMP has more. I like the look of the BMP and the sound of the supercharger to. Also I have found with Rogue system being sealed from the bonnet, it is really mimicking the same stock air box. The only difference between the stock and Rogue is the cone filter and the size of the box. It is still a sealed system,and it still gets all its air through the snorkel. The volume has not changed. With the BMP you do get some heat intrusion but that quickly goes away when you are moving. How many cold air intakes have you seen that are sealed?? Look at the K&N systems, not just for the MINI but most all of their's are open cone type intakes. And the quicker you go you produce more of an airflow, even if it is 90 degrees outside and when you are moving the temp is not that much greater the the outside temp. The BMP being open in the rear of the shield then has a lot more air to bring in through the intake because it is open. That to me says you will produce more HP. Increased Airflow + fuel= Additional HP. I am an engineer by trade and the way I look at it its obvious to me which one is better. This is just my opinion. Get which ever one you think fits you and makes you
that is what I did. That's why I chose the BMP. I know alot of people think the Rouge is better and that's fine, it maybe where they live. But a dyno here and a dyno in the Midwest are in to different climates and the HP will be different no matter what they say. I think that the real issue for additional HP is with the intercooler. Cooling that is what you want to do to make additional HP in a hot climate. The Alta system seems to be the way to go. Spraying a mist of water over the intercooler will make a big change in the HP. Good Luck and when I reach the 200 hp goal it will be with a BMP intake. Remember one thing here in SoFlo we don't have winter. It is hot 9 months out of the year. So we need all the cool air we can get. _________________
#7
02-24-2003, 10:33 PM
>>>>
>>>>Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
>>
>>I did try both and found here in South Florida that there is a difference in the HP. I actually found that the BMP has more. I like the look of the BMP and the sound of the supercharger to. Also I have found with Rogue system being sealed from the bonnet, it is really mimicking the same stock air box. The only difference between the stock and Rogue is the cone filter and the size of the box. It is still a sealed system,and it still gets all its air through the snorkel. The volume has not changed. With the BMP you do get some heat intrusion but that quickly goes away when you are moving. How many cold air intakes have you seen that are sealed?? Look at the K&N systems, not just for the MINI but most all of their's are open cone type intakes. And the quicker you go you produce more of an airflow, even if it is 90 degrees outside and when you are moving the temp is not that much greater the the outside temp. The BMP being open in the rear of the shield then has a lot more air to bring in through the intake because it is open. That to me says you will produce more HP. Increased Airflow + fuel= Additional HP. I am an engineer by trade and the way I look at it its obvious to me which one is better. This is just my opinion. Get which ever one you think fits you and makes you
>> that is what I did. That's why I chose the BMP. I know alot of people think the Rouge is better and that's fine, it maybe where they live. But a dyno here and a dyno in the Midwest are in to different climates and the HP will be different no matter what they say. I think that the real issue for additional HP is with the intercooler. Cooling that is what you want to do to make additional HP in a hot climate. The Alta system seems to be the way to go. Spraying a mist of water over the intercooler will make a big change in the HP. Good Luck and when I reach the 200 hp goal it will be with a BMP intake. Remember one thing here in SoFlo we don't have winter. It is hot 9 months out of the year. So we need all the cool air we can get.
>>
>>_________________
>>
I personally dyno tested them both, and greatgro is very close to the dyno numbers. Not sure what you are trying to get at with the climate remark as we tested with same car and same conditions one right after the other 2 different times. The BMP scored 4 at the wheels and the Rogue 9.7 at the wheels. We did this on two seperate ocasions with no other mods in the car.
The BMP filter is allot smaller with flow rates not as good as the rogue. The heat shield is cheaper in construction. Maybe what you felt is sound cause the power is very noticable between the two if you test them in the same conditions.
The other advantage to the Rogue is you get a cleaning kit and oil kit with the filter good for about 3 uses. The BMP does not and you will have to go and buy this seperate.
BTW the BMP is open in the rear but there is no air source directly feeding into that area. You can modify the wall behind it but this is another project and can be added HP for both. Randy has a great how to on this mod. If BMP would have spent a few more bucks on the filter they would have had a better solution.
I just got my Alta water spray today and I can say I am NOT all that impressed. You will loose your rear wiper. The instructions want you to disconnect it electrically and use its tank. This is a poor solution. I also wish that the air deverter would have been ABS plastic or carbon fiber. Its made from steel and is very heavy. I just think they came out with this way too early. They need the complete solution with the tank and intelligent water spray. Not the rear wiper.
>>>>Nobull- why do you like the BMP over the Rogue? Have you tried them both? I'm very interested in what you have to say.
>>
>>I did try both and found here in South Florida that there is a difference in the HP. I actually found that the BMP has more. I like the look of the BMP and the sound of the supercharger to. Also I have found with Rogue system being sealed from the bonnet, it is really mimicking the same stock air box. The only difference between the stock and Rogue is the cone filter and the size of the box. It is still a sealed system,and it still gets all its air through the snorkel. The volume has not changed. With the BMP you do get some heat intrusion but that quickly goes away when you are moving. How many cold air intakes have you seen that are sealed?? Look at the K&N systems, not just for the MINI but most all of their's are open cone type intakes. And the quicker you go you produce more of an airflow, even if it is 90 degrees outside and when you are moving the temp is not that much greater the the outside temp. The BMP being open in the rear of the shield then has a lot more air to bring in through the intake because it is open. That to me says you will produce more HP. Increased Airflow + fuel= Additional HP. I am an engineer by trade and the way I look at it its obvious to me which one is better. This is just my opinion. Get which ever one you think fits you and makes you
>>
that is what I did. That's why I chose the BMP. I know alot of people think the Rouge is better and that's fine, it maybe where they live. But a dyno here and a dyno in the Midwest are in to different climates and the HP will be different no matter what they say. I think that the real issue for additional HP is with the intercooler. Cooling that is what you want to do to make additional HP in a hot climate. The Alta system seems to be the way to go. Spraying a mist of water over the intercooler will make a big change in the HP. Good Luck and when I reach the 200 hp goal it will be with a BMP intake. Remember one thing here in SoFlo we don't have winter. It is hot 9 months out of the year. So we need all the cool air we can get. >>
>>_________________
>>
I personally dyno tested them both, and greatgro is very close to the dyno numbers. Not sure what you are trying to get at with the climate remark as we tested with same car and same conditions one right after the other 2 different times. The BMP scored 4 at the wheels and the Rogue 9.7 at the wheels. We did this on two seperate ocasions with no other mods in the car.
The BMP filter is allot smaller with flow rates not as good as the rogue. The heat shield is cheaper in construction. Maybe what you felt is sound cause the power is very noticable between the two if you test them in the same conditions.
The other advantage to the Rogue is you get a cleaning kit and oil kit with the filter good for about 3 uses. The BMP does not and you will have to go and buy this seperate.
BTW the BMP is open in the rear but there is no air source directly feeding into that area. You can modify the wall behind it but this is another project and can be added HP for both. Randy has a great how to on this mod. If BMP would have spent a few more bucks on the filter they would have had a better solution.
I just got my Alta water spray today and I can say I am NOT all that impressed. You will loose your rear wiper. The instructions want you to disconnect it electrically and use its tank. This is a poor solution. I also wish that the air deverter would have been ABS plastic or carbon fiber. Its made from steel and is very heavy. I just think they came out with this way too early. They need the complete solution with the tank and intelligent water spray. Not the rear wiper.
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#8
02-25-2003, 05:01 AM
MCSHP - where did you get the 6.9hp number for the new UCC exhaust? Is that the manufacturer claim? If it is, is that all they're really claiming? That's a shame - it is the best sounding and best looking MINI exhaust BY FAR! I'd pay the $800 if it was a powerful as the Quicksilver but the price is a bit steep for only a small handful of horses...Please let us know where that number came from b/c info on this new system is hard to come by.
#9
02-25-2003, 08:58 AM
>>MCSHP - where did you get the 6.9hp number for the new UCC exhaust? Is that the manufacturer claim? If it is, is that all they're really claiming? That's a shame - it is the best sounding and best looking MINI exhaust BY FAR! I'd pay the $800 if it was a powerful as the Quicksilver but the price is a bit steep for only a small handful of horses...Please let us know where that number came from b/c info on this new system is hard to come by.
Yes sir that is what they are claiming. We have not tested that version yet.
Yes sir that is what they are claiming. We have not tested that version yet.
#10
02-25-2003, 08:58 AM
>>MCSHP - where did you get the 6.9hp number for the new UCC exhaust? Is that the manufacturer claim? If it is, is that all they're really claiming? That's a shame - it is the best sounding and best looking MINI exhaust BY FAR! I'd pay the $800 if it was a powerful as the Quicksilver but the price is a bit steep for only a small handful of horses...Please let us know where that number came from b/c info on this new system is hard to come by.
Yes sir that is what they are claiming. We have not tested that version yet.
Yes sir that is what they are claiming. We have not tested that version yet.
#11
02-25-2003, 09:52 PM
Nobull,
I have to back what MCSHP said - we've found similar numbers as well. All dynos do take into consideration density, so you should be comparing apples to apples - that's what we've seen so far after doing some of our own testing which mimics the testing Bryan has done at sea level in the Northwest.
The sound difference between the two does make you feel like you are going faster, but the dyno has given pretty consistent numbers once the car is warm.
As for the UUC system numbers, it will again be an apples to apples once we can get the system here and test it.
Just from the design of it, it should make more than that - it's more a matter of having the same dyno tests. I think in the same conditions that the QS and Magnaflow are making 10 or so hp plus, the UUC will make similar numbers as well.
I'll be sure to get that info out ASAP!
Let me know if there are other questions.
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
720-841-1002
I have to back what MCSHP said - we've found similar numbers as well. All dynos do take into consideration density, so you should be comparing apples to apples - that's what we've seen so far after doing some of our own testing which mimics the testing Bryan has done at sea level in the Northwest.
The sound difference between the two does make you feel like you are going faster, but the dyno has given pretty consistent numbers once the car is warm.
As for the UUC system numbers, it will again be an apples to apples once we can get the system here and test it.
Just from the design of it, it should make more than that - it's more a matter of having the same dyno tests. I think in the same conditions that the QS and Magnaflow are making 10 or so hp plus, the UUC will make similar numbers as well.
I'll be sure to get that info out ASAP!
Let me know if there are other questions.
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
720-841-1002
#12
02-26-2003, 03:26 AM
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#13
02-26-2003, 05:48 AM
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I'll stir the pot a little. Im good at it. :smile:
I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
--
Cheese
I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
--
Cheese
#14
02-26-2003, 06:02 AM
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>>I'll stir the pot a little. Im good at it. :smile:
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Finally someone who has found the same results as me.
:smile:
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Finally someone who has found the same results as me.
:smile:
#15
02-26-2003, 06:10 AM
>>I'll stir the pot a little. Im good at it. :smile:
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Hmmmm. Interesting.
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Hmmmm. Interesting.
#16
02-26-2003, 06:24 AM
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>>Just wait for the JCW upgrade to come out in a couple more months and you will get to 200+ hp and still keep your warrenty. Thant's my plans. But I still like the BMP more than the Rouge.
If were talking $ per HP then the JCW is an expensive way to go at $6000, which calculates to a whopping $162 per HP. As Randy stated you'd be better off putting the $3000 dollars into aftermarket mods like intake, exhaust, and SC pulley that will get you to 200HP, and keep the left over $3000 for repairs down the road.
If were talking $ per HP then the JCW is an expensive way to go at $6000, which calculates to a whopping $162 per HP. As Randy stated you'd be better off putting the $3000 dollars into aftermarket mods like intake, exhaust, and SC pulley that will get you to 200HP, and keep the left over $3000 for repairs down the road.
#17
02-26-2003, 06:24 AM
6th Gear
>>How can BMP get away with the 12.1 hp claim if everyone else is coming up w/ FAR DIFFERENT #'s?
>>Have they claimed fraudulent results to sell their product? I'm just wondering if there are a bunch of us out here who have been duped
Manufacturers are claiming all sorts of wild,inflated numbers for various mods. See here for a compilation of the tall tales:
http://www.mcshp.org/data.html
>>Have they claimed fraudulent results to sell their product? I'm just wondering if there are a bunch of us out here who have been duped
Manufacturers are claiming all sorts of wild,inflated numbers for various mods. See here for a compilation of the tall tales:
http://www.mcshp.org/data.html
#18
02-26-2003, 06:50 PM
>>I'll stir the pot a little. Im good at it. :smile:
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Cheese,
Obvoiously it may be different here at altitude (where I think it is even more critical to get as much air as possible), but at the track (road course, not drag strip) the Madness intake does better.
I like both - it's just preference I think. The Rogue does make better numbers across the entire curve, but the BMP improves over stock, is made well, and is cheaper.
CCM,
BMP wasn't trying to dupe anyone - I've talked with them, and the numbers they use are just done when the car is cold.
I'd also like to stir the pot ('cause I don't get to that much anymore for political reasons) and say cheese and nobull are craaaazy
Randy
>>
>>I'm not promoting or condoning either intake but: there are a bunch of guys in the NYC metro area that drag MINIs at Englishtown. They all prefer the BMP to the Rogue and claim to have the timeslips to prove its a better design. Nice bunch of guys but that doesnt make them right (or wrong)... Street versus dyno can make a difference in who is "king" especially with things that are very dependent on airflow. I can provide a samecar OBDII comparison if anyone in the NJ owns either or both. Your car or mine.
>>
>>--
>>Cheese
>>
Cheese,
Obvoiously it may be different here at altitude (where I think it is even more critical to get as much air as possible), but at the track (road course, not drag strip) the Madness intake does better.
I like both - it's just preference I think. The Rogue does make better numbers across the entire curve, but the BMP improves over stock, is made well, and is cheaper.
CCM,
BMP wasn't trying to dupe anyone - I've talked with them, and the numbers they use are just done when the car is cold.
I'd also like to stir the pot ('cause I don't get to that much anymore for political reasons) and say cheese and nobull are craaaazy
Randy
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