This is very true....if you look at my sig I think I have everything that "bolts on" save the ported SC which I have dismissed because of no real proof of performance gains.

Your list is not that long.......

The next "big" thing is the head and cam...... which works better with the header and intake manifold. I don't think you can get the bang out of any of those "mods" taken individually. I put the header on and didn't really feel much but when the head went on it seemed like I got the double bang of the header and the head/cam...... To me all this stuff works synergistically and taken by themselves nothing compares to that first 15% pulley but as a system they work with each other to where you begin to realize the benefits of the individual components....as a system.

I think that there are three levels of mods.

1) software, intake, pulley, catback

2) TB, head/cam, header, IC

3) Twincharge

Throw out level 3 (for now) because you said you don't want it and I have no experience, therefore no right to talk about it (yet)

I think that the best thing to do is commmit to these levels completely or don't go there at all. tthe head without the header etc, etc,

IMO those first four in level one transform the car to what it should have been stock to wear the "S" moniker.

I would not start on level 2 unless you plan to complete it because, .... again it's my opinion, you don't really get what you think your going to get in stages .... I was dissatisfied with my car for a long time until the last 6 months it has really come together now that stage 2 is complete.

One last thing.......again my opinion.....if you do the larger IC, do the M7 scoop. The IC by itself was underwhelming ask "hornguy" , but when I put the scoop on, it really made a difference..... some don't like the cosmetics but the design works.

Last thing on this post.... I promise.... Josh at Unichip when he did my custom tune really was a huge bang for the buck moment. His work gave me power and smoothness where I never had it....and that was the icing on the cake to pull it together.

OOOPS...this is the last thing....... I really promise this time

Had I known what this was going to cost me in $s, and frustration and even though I have a sweet running car......(you can add up the $)
I would have camped at Hubie's or Eric's and asked for a derated twin charge........ made about 250 at the wheels and saved myself at least $4000.00. more like 5-6K and without pushing everything to the limits had a "kick ***" little car. The only thing I am not sure about because I don't have personal experience is reliability. Eric says he drives his everyday, no problems.....had i not spent my money, (I am looking into options now) I would make a trip up there and drive his car, check out the workmanship, look him in the eye and make sure he is going to be there for you if things go wrong (I met Eric and he is a very impressive guy) and then start making decisions.

Thanks for listening

 

The term blueprinting used to mean returning all tolerances to stock spec but I think today it is generally understood to mean exceeding OEM standards and creating a precision design for whatever intended purpose. Now you’ve seen that there is someone doing that.

Bang for the buck is a relative term. If reliability is the goal, precision design and construction can forgive many abusive sins but, economical and precision are not associative terms in this case. The only mod that meets the low price requirement is the 19% reduction pulley.

As for the head modification it doesn’t mean power can’t be made without all of those extra accouterments. Yes an improved intake will help breathing at high rpm but how often do you go there? The same can be said about the other stuff including the cam.

Larry is doing CNC work on the heads now and I don’t know what the current price structure is but in the past it was competitive and far less than some other well known names.

The purpose for titanium retainers is to lighten the valve train for high rpm service. They require prepping the spring so it doesn’t gouge the retainer. Not the best material for long term, don’t go into the head much, service. An irrelevant selling point for the stock rev limit user who doesn’t want to freshen-up the head often.

 

despite not having the worlds greatest mechanical experience, data etc, im glad my opinions on the matter align with that of Spider X notice how he experienced a big difference with headers? again its the synergies ur aiming for - more than likely how the parts are designed IMO.

totally agree with u re: head and cams first then T/B.

ive only seen 2 cars with FMIC ever - one is El Diablo (not randys version) and another on Car Domain.com (randys version)

Cheers mate and G'luck!!

EDIT; just another thing to consider. if u look at spiders list of mods.. he's done pretty much everthing! and pumping out maybe around 200whp.. vs Twincharged ur gonna get much more than that. I know u dont want TC, but if ur really looking for 'bang for buck' then i guess the answer is there.

 

Spyder, You got the lessons learned us newbies need to learn about this particular car so I got to respect that.

I am coming to the conclusion that what your saying here about "level 2" is absolutely correct. Just dump the money all at once in one BIG upgrade. Now ... I will just go away, save my money for many, many moons and probably do it all at once when I can. Im thinking this more and more. I see no point in, for example, adding a TB.

As to Level 1 being what MINI should have done ... not sure about that. You got to remember that the "masses" care little about performance. Of all the MCS sold in US, how many are totally stock? I'd bet 80% of them. if not way more.

As to Level 3, I see two issues with that, especially since I know your considering it.

1. Reliability. If its your daily driver, its just to immature a technology to risk it. Not proven at all. A few ancedotal example (even 50 -100 examples) are just to small amount of data point to come anywhere near being a definitive answer. I need it to be dead reliable and the Level 2 things are just stock in trade, standard things done for years in cars. Now if its just your toy to play with ... totally different ballgame
2. 2008 and beyond MINI Turbos. They claim they are starting at 170hp but the moment they come out, You will see 250 in a year (if not sooner). That will swing many ppl into jumping on that bandwagon ....

Just my thoughts.

 

Your assesment of twin charge is exactly what is hanging me up on it....all your points are well taken and the early adopters are just that early adopters.

I think you read me right......either commit to all of it or don't bother because there is no single "bang" like the first pulley. You can do it as you have the money. TB this month......IC in a few months....head/cam as Christmas in July for yourself....just realize that until it is all done the benefits will be realized but not what you expect.......which is about 200 whp on a stingy dyno......

Your assesment of my assesment of the "S" should have come this way is also correct.......I get carried away......most folks are thrilled with the stock performance.

I know you don't want to talk about brakes and suspension .... what do you have? ....... I would do the brakes, suspension/sway bar long before I did the engine beyond stage "1". Your car will be much faster because you can carry more speed/keep revs up etc ...... at the dragon while others were all over there highly faded brakes I was just tapping...... I recently went on a drive with the Atlanta Minis and the driver behind me was all over the place because she was watching my brake lights as her braking cues......this was very dangerous and I sought her out at the break and explained to her why she was struggling........ I you don't have brakes and sus IMO get it....makes the car so much more fun. If you do forget everything you just read:smile:

 

See http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104521

 

Okay from Chows original post what is an SW? I have talked to Brian extensively on the issue of what mods to get. To keep my engine compartment from looking aftermarket, I have decided to go with the JCW CAI, which he said won't be as good as the alta, but again I don't want my engine compartment to look aftermarket. As for the head work. Brian cannot say (protecting against idea taking), what they do besides what known by the common folk, what they do on the head. He said that they do "special stuff" to the valves. So that could mean a number of things. I have decided against (and happily my dad did also) the JCW because for 6 grand I just don't see that big of a difference. I can spend the same amount (just on parts) and get in the neighborhood of 215-220 at the wheels! That's 5 to ten horsepower at the wheels than JCW is at the crank! So there are alot of options, but this time I will side with who I trust, Randy and Brian @ Webbmotorsports.com. They have answered all of my questions and given me assistance I did not expect, but I though was awesome! I will procede on schedule of getting my Webb "Works" put on at the same time I was going to put on my JCW, this spring, and can't wait. I am worried about one thing though: where can I improve after that?

Chili

 

SW means SoftWare.

Chili, read carefully Spyders Post. I quote:

"which is about 200 whp on a stingy dyno......"

Read carefully all the work he has done including webbs head, shrick cam, etc. I have no idea but I would bet he's got a whole lot of money sunk into that car. If you think your getting 220WHP, I really doubt it.

 

From what I'm reading he's referring to u or someone else. I'm going all out and getting the "real works" as I put it:
2% Crank Pulley
15% alta pulley
GRS IC
Webb UniChip
Webb Head w/cam
Milltek Header
NEW Webb Exhaust
Pilo Coilpack
Nology HWs
Denso IK22s
M7 Oil Catch Can
M7 Ported Supercharger
Maybe:Webb T/B, Intake Manifold

 

Yea, Spider's got WAY more than 200whp! More like 220-240 i'm thinkin.

 

Chili, your not reading the posts correctly

READ Spider's post. Hes claiming 200 WHEEL HP and its the same parts (more or less).

Your off base in your projections.

 

It depends on which Dyno...... on the stingy dynos with no correction 197.7- 200 203.2WHP is about it...... On the dynos that are more forgiving the numbers jump quite a bit. Why do you think Eric at Helix has offered free dyno time if you break 200 whp on his dyno with a regular SC. He knows!!!!

Before the WMS exhaust and the custom tune and crank pulley I did a fully corrected run of 241.1 but those of us who have been doing dynos on our cars like JLM, Eric, Randy etc (I am not worthy) know that the numbers that some people report are from Mars (sorry)... That is why I have been so critical of dynos as a comparison from one car to another. I have used 5 different dynos now and my conclusion is the only real value is same dyno same day......same dyno different days with correction for atmosphere (this is shakey) for comparative uses after mods...on the same car .....and things like that....but to go to dyno in NY and say I've got 215 and you've got 185 in CO. from different dynos on different days etc and think that definitively your car makes more power is IMO ludicris (sp?).

I know that some people say that Dynojets are very consistent ...... from one to the other ... this is just from my experience not what I have read or heard people say.

I went out for a drive tonight and my car was running great.....smooth from top to bottom and I am happier with it now than I have ever been I am pleased but not satisfied...... Someone said it earlier today about why he was selling his Mini "I have car ADD"

 

so before the webb exhaust, crank, and tune, you had 241.1whp?

 

No......that was a fully corrected for Atmoshpere,.... SAE and drive line loss of 11% so that theoretically was at the crank......one would think with the other additions that I would have picked up 20 hp at the crank considering the 8.5 from just opening the valve and the 2.5 second dif from the 60-90 roll ons but dynos and Minis don't play well together.

My suggestion is find a dyno that you like and do all your testing there and don't worry about the number but the improvement in the number. I have seen Vettes on the dyno and Z cars on the dyno with just a fan in front of the radiator putting out 550 whp and 578 ft lb of torque (vette) with just one fan in front of the radiator. The Mini and its SC and IC and pretty persnickity and don't dyno particularly well/strong.....more later going to bed

 

I agree! I just don't know where one is!
With my quick calc, assuming 11-12% loss, you would be around 215-216whp, BEFORE the exhuast and other stuff. I just did that in my head though, so correct me if I'm wrong!

Chili

 

why does it show Chows4us is still online, when he hasn't been for like almost 20min?

 

I still dont thing your seeing what hes saying. He claims 200 on a conservative one ... add the exhaust ... dont know how much more but i doubt it 10 at the wheel over the miltek.

My only point is dont set youself up for disappointment, thats it and Happy Thanksgiving.

 

I don't Dyno my car ... Unless you are testing a product to find what the final number is

I would only set myself up for a let-down or a catch up philosophy, to achieve someone elses set point

I would only do it to "custom tune" my Uni-Chip

My car does fine, passing the big dogs on straights BUTT-Dyno does me fine

 

Another voice of reason

btw is that your twin?

 

I hope I'm not trying to! Thanks for looking out for me though, I clearly see what your saying!:smile: Really though anything better than what I have now, and say thats nearly thirty whp better than the JCW on a conservative dyno, for the same price, IS FINE WITH ME! BTW these aren't my estimates, they are Brian and Randy's. I don't know enough about these parts and what they do hp wise to the engine, so I would be way off base to estimate my total whp! As we do in the study of statistics, we ignore the outliers, or in other words what isn't close to the mean whp in this case. I would ignore an estimate of 200 or below, and one thats 250whp the same, though I would want to believe the latter. I'm really not concerned about hp,whp, or whatever just how the car performs. I can easily see more whp on the webb version of my car than that on the JCW version of my car at the crank. There are just SO many more parts, not only that, but the parts are more hp capable, than that of the JCW, take for example the head and the way the porting looks on the JCW. I'm going with Randy and his suggestions on my car because I trust him, and his team, they don't make promises only to renig on them. But as SpiderX said I will be happy with my mods, but will not be satisfied, b/c I will always want more horsepower. I have alot to be thankful for this Thanksgiving, I am a lucky kid, even though sometimes I don't see it that way. I wish all of you a happy Thanksgiving! I fear I'll be 10 pounds heavier by the end of this weekend though.

Mike

 

Hmmm... best bang for the buck? How bout stripping the interior, selling everything... stereo, carpet, sound deadening, trim rings, back seats. Replace all the side and rear glass with Lexan (cheap), rip out the power window motors, remove the hood shocks. Have no idea, but there's probably a ton of wiring for accessories in the standard harness you don't need. Yank all that crap too. Take all the saleable parts and ebay 'em and buy a couple of Cobra racing seats. If you get lucky you it might cost nothing but time. Drop this sucker down a few hundred pounds and it will go a lot faster and handle a lot better, plus you'll make money on the proposition. 210 WHP on 2100#s? Sounds pretty good to me. 'course you might find it a bit crude as a street car .

 

Dear SpiderX, I'm I missunderstanding you? Are you saying the M62 isn't worth the $$$? Or at what price point would you say it is............ Say isn't so!:impatient

 

this thread pre-dates the M62 work....

Matt