Being the non-authority that I am...

I used to have a water injection kit on my CRX that I t-charged.

Are these obsolete?

Thoughts...

-Jim

 

Jim,

Like the old Merlin engine from a P-51? I haven't done that with cars. Do you have a pic of the setup? Was it actuated in the car, or was it linked to the throttle application? Tell me more...

For those of you who don't know what he's talking about, water is incompressible. If you inject the combustion chamber with water, it effectively raises the compression ratio. On the Merlin, it was used mostly in dives and for short periods to out-maneuver the Bf 109 and the Zero in dogfights.

It was a tricky mod, because it is difficult to control the compression with it.

I guess it could be used in dogfights of sorts on the MINI

 

A guy on my bonne forum designed one of these for his Supercharged bonneville. The bonneville forum right now is down though so I can't point you to it. He was using to cool the intake charge though not to increase compression ratio. The water evaporates almost instantly after hitting the hot air charge coming off the supercharger and the evaporation process cools the intake charge. The cooler charge makes more power and increases boost.

 

here are some links for companies selling water injection.

These are for 3000GT's but i really don't think the vehicle matters for something like this.


http://www.3sxperformance.com/alcoholinj.asp

http://www.rtec.ch/water_injection.html

 

i used to fly a old martin 404 we would use water/glycol for the takeoff. it helped the engine from detonating. it gave some horspower but was mainly used to encrease cooling when higher engine power was demanded. it was injected into the cylinders by a injector manifold. this engine developed about 2000 hp. by the way the lucky ones to ride in back was a band called the doobie brothers for you old farts.

 

Wow, the Doobie Brothers - Cool!

I flew a Metro that used the same thing with Garrett engines: TPE331-11s. You would set power to 70% and then hit the water - it would instantly go to 110% .

110% was only authorized during the "wet" takeoff.

Randy

 

what do you think does the mini really need the water injection. i dont think the supercharger will add that much heat and the engine probably wont gain that much horsepower. other things should be done first. i have a seabee airplane and it uses a supercharger for its engine it is a go480 with 340 hp. now i have two superchargers in the family. that metro was a runway eater i bet you were glad to get the water on.

 

The guy on my bonneville forum picked up two lbs of boost according to his boost gauge by using the water injection system.

I wish he had a EGT sensor to see if his exhuast gas temps went down though.

 

0k guys yes the temps went down. also the head presure went way up. it is nothing more than a steam engine. you put water in and heat it up and what does it do but expand. makes a cooler burn and also alot of presure. but it also adds to the engine wear and shorter life. that is why it is only used for high power applications. kind of like nitro. we are talking about cars that hopefully will give alot of reliable driving. heard the one about the darwin award a few years ago just get a jato bottle and lift the hatch and hang on. all of these are just short term fixes.

 

cuny,

I tend to agree with you. We never used this on IMSA cars, or even SCCA sprint cars for that matter. There are better ways out there.

Randy

 

Water injection can be used externally, as well, to lower intercooler temps. A water/alcohol mix can be used both ways. Either way, the alcohol to water ratio can be played with to great effect. Externally, if the injectors were located near the back of the hood scoop it would spray the water, or water/alcohol mix, under pretty good pressure over the intercooler. I'm sure that the temperature drop could be dramatic and the horsepower gained would be significant. Unfortunately, a small amount of water still could puddle on the intake manifold and the system would need refilling often if used frequently. The way to use it would be when extra power was needed, especially on a hot day, flip an arming switch that allowed the system to activate under full throttle. A warning light could tell you when the bottle was low.
This external cooling of the intercooler might be effective on the MCS because of limited 'exit air flow' uder the intercooler. This is simply a space limitation. A 2" rise on the hood would allow a 1" thicker intercooler and 1" additional room for air to exit under the intercooler above the manifold. Just another option. Who wants a big carbon fiber 'shaker' hood scoop?

PerfPow

 

I know for a fact that http://www.altaminiperformance.com is working on a water mist system for the intercooler. The plastic shroud is replaced by a new metal one, with built in spots for the water mister jets. Believe it's set to pull from your windshield washer tank, or an externally mounted tank. Alta is a scooby tuner as well, so they know what they are doing, as they are modling this after the WRX STi factory misters. Keep your fingers crossed it makes it to the market soon. I, for one, will be the first in line.

R

 

>>cuny,
>>
>>I tend to agree with you. We never used this on IMSA cars, or even SCCA sprint cars for that matter. There are better ways out there.
>>
>>Randy


I run water/alky injection mixture in my Syclone. There are many reasons why vehicles with long track operating times do not use this type of intercooler (yes, the water injection is essentially used to keep manifold temps/Intake temps down). Water/Alky injection is also an octane booster. The biggest drawback for the above examples is the amount of water you'd have to carry to complete a race. Drag racing/street racing and rally racing have embraced alky/water injection as very effective way to lower charged air temps, which reduces the engines propensity to detonate/pre-ignite. For instance, I can run timing and boost levels normally reserved for race gas (116 octane tune) all the time when I use alky/water injection. What I had to do before I had alky/water injection was to change chip settings, and put 116 octane in the tank to run my track chip setting ( more aggressive timing and boost). Now I can run my track setting on the street, and not have to worry about knock.

Water/Alky injection has its place, and for those that want to run an aggressive chip tune and boost levels, it is a great way to prevent your motor from grenading.
Here is an article about the subject:
http://autospeed.com/A_0115/P_1/article.html

Here is the kit I use:
http://www.smcenterprises.com/Injector.htm




_________________

 

Thank Daron. It's great to have such an ecclectic group here on MCO!

Randy

 

>>Jim,
>>
>>Like the old Merlin engine from a P-51? I haven't done that with cars. Do you have a pic of the setup? Was it actuated in the car, or was it linked to the throttle application? Tell me more...

I don't have a picture of it.

This was on my '87 CRX that I had Turbo charged and intercooled.

I want to say that it was a Jackson racing kit.

Quite honestly, the water injection made MORE of a difference than the intercooler did. Now the water injection came after the Intercooler did so maybe it was the Intercooler AND the Injection but not one or the other that made so much difference. (does that make sense?) This kit advertised not as a water dump into the engine but to spray a cool mist that cooled the air even further and allowed more air in.

The water injection kit was VERY simple, it had a reservoir tank, a line, and a little nozzle that you tapped (sealed) into the intake system. I want to say I got that from Jackson Racing as well.

-J

_________________
"Mjolnir" | Dark Silver MCS, Black roof - stripes, all 3 packages, 17" wheels. | Madison, WI

"It's not just a passion, it's an obsession!"

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Actually the cylinder pressure dosen't increase, and there is no worse wear and tear on your engine.

If you read the aquamist website it will convince you how good these are. I have been using these, and so does most every rally team in the world, for years now.

The idea is just to cool the air going into the engine. The water is vaporized before it gets into the cylinder so the cylinder pressure doesn't change. In our Subaru, i have seen drops in EGTs around 100-200F. This is on a 350+ hp motor.

As for the durability, engines acutally last longer and run better with these systems. Anyone that has had one will tell you how clean the cylinder head, combustion chamber, and spark plugs are when the engines are torn apart.

Water injection is a must for high strung engines with turbos or super chargers. On cars with top mounted IC's they work very well because they help with limited cooling surface area.

our Cooper S will have one very soon.

Make sure you get the Aquamist system, they use a very high pressure pump and special nozzle. this is an Item we can get for you, they cost about $500.

Jeff Perrin
http://www.altaminiperformance.com

 

thanks guys for all the neat info. i too will be looking forward to all the aftermarket things that will be added to the mini. im glad to see so many people with alot more tech than i will ever have. thats why i like driving them and pushing the buttons so that all i have to do is enjoy and stay within the design limits. looking forward to more time and best designs. for now i have to get over the breakin miles. mcs brg

 

I have some information that I think could be very helpful with this issue of intercooler cooling. Nitrous Express is working on a kit in cordination with BMP that sprays the outside of the intercooler with either nitrous or more likely carbon dioxide much cheaper and just as effective. The guy I talked to at Nitrous Express said that this kit added 50 horsepower also said that the mini design generated more HP than any other kit. And since there is no nitrous going through the motor there is no chance of damaging the engine. It gets the air soo cold it is like driving around the north pole in the dead of winter. And we all know that cold air makes more horsepower. I called BMP and they said they are still in the design stages of the spray bar that mounts to the intercooller they said about 3-5 months before they have the product ready to sell. But if you want you can buy the general intercooler chiller from nitrous express and make your own spray bar. This is what I am heavliy considering doing as I don't think that I can wait for BMP. Hopefully this helps some people before they go shooting water into a motor. :smile:

 

Couldn't one just get a nitrous purge kit and reroute the plumbing to purge directly onto the intercooler?

 

>>Couldn't one just get a nitrous purge kit and reroute the plumbing to purge directly onto the intercooler?

If you're considering NOS just save the trouble; pour gas all over your car and light it. You'll get the same result more cheaply. The car will burn up without having to purchase the NOS kit.

90% of the people I know who have had NO2 put on their cars have blown them up or broken something expen$ive that is now not covered by warranty.

My not so humble opinion.

 

>>If you're considering NOS just save the trouble; pour gas all over your car and light it. You'll get the same result more cheaply. The car will burn up without having to purchase the NOS kit.
>>
>>90% of the people I know who have had NO2 put on their cars have blown them up or broken something expen$ive that is now not covered by warranty.
>>
>>My not so humble opinion.

I've successfully run 75hp-150hp shots of nitrous on my previous car, which lasted up to 110,000 miles before I sold it (with no engine problems). But that's beside the point.

I'm not suggesting to run nitrous, but what I *was* suggesting is to run a purge kit and have it oriented so that it sprays on the outside of the intercooler. You can run a purge kit without running nitrous through the engine.

 

>>>>Couldn't one just get a nitrous purge kit and reroute the plumbing to purge directly onto the intercooler?
>>
>>If you're considering NOS just save the trouble; pour gas all over your car and light it. You'll get the same result more cheaply. The car will burn up without having to purchase the NOS kit.
>>
>>90% of the people I know who have had NO2 put on their cars have blown them up or broken something expen$ive that is now not covered by warranty.
>>
>>My not so humble opinion.


Did the follow the instructions on the kit? Did they try and make their own custom set up?

I mean it is pretty hard to screw up a nitrous kit as long as you follow the kit instructions and install all the fuel and nitrious cut offs right. Most stock motors can take a 50-125 shot of Nitrous and some can take 150+ if they have forged internals and such.

A fairly common practice is for people who are running real big turbos to use a small hit of nitrous, 40-50 shot, to kill the turbo lag and supercool the intake charge.

 

Nitrous has two uses in our application. Either the conventional use of introducing it into your combustion chamber, or as a supercooler for the outside of your Intercooler. Two very different uses, one is more safe than the other. As for the conventional use of Nitrous, it gets its bad rep from folks that arent adept at tuning, and lack the tools or knowhow to determine rich/lean conditions and adjust fueling requirements for either. Tuned correctly, Nitrous is very safe. However, like a handgun, it can be dangerous if used incorrectly.

 

I ran water injection in my Corvair. Great to solve most of the knock problem. Was just the standard unit Holly sold. Used a lot of water but make sure it's distilled or you may ruin the nozzle. I ran a side draft webber which you could see the fuel guage move when you stomped on it! I sold all my corvairs but will get me a Yenko one of these days!

 

lotsoboost, Thanks for the informative paragraph on this. Please keep us aprised of any future developements here. On question, if carbon dioxide is used, how long can it be be used to cool the intercooler? Is this just used for a quick launch or throughout an entire run? I live in hot Phoenix and keeping the intercooler cooled may become priority no 1 for me.