We have completed our long term testing on our supercharger inlet pipe upgrade. It has been installed on our project since December 2003 and the amazing sound that it produces has only been magnified by our ever increasing horsepower levels. The part may be available soon in your choice of red or blue. The incredible sound of 400+BHP flowing through this pipe is truly worth more than any actual horsepower gains.

 

Relax ... take a deep breath. This is an Internet discussion forum for Performance Mods on MINI's. If you don't want to see questions, answers, discussion, and disagreement, nobody is forcing you to participate.

Instead of getting angry, why don't you make suggestions about how you would make this idea better? Contrary to how you may feel, this is not about a single vendor or a single product ... it is about all vendors and all products posted here.

 

Andy,

I understand your point. I am not doubting that nor am I saying that you are pointing fingers. There are others in this thread that are and I guess I am getting tired of hearing people complain about how a vendor brings a product to market.

That is the main reason I apologized for my tone. I did not want to be angry about it.
I really just want to see people read what they see, take it for face value and make their own judgement about what to buy and what not to buy.
If there are results to back something up and you don't believe them, don't bash them.
If there are no results but someone is happy, just let them be happy and try not and bash the product or their recommendation of it and the vendor.

I will continue to buy products based upon my own decision. I may also choose to promote that vendor or product. While I am not an expert, heck I am probably below the level of a novice, there is no reason that people should trash my opinion because it is just that. an OPINION.

Again I have spent too much time on this and am sorry for wasting the space in this thread, I do not want to take away from the constructive nature of your post Andy. I just want people to stop bashing vendors and their methodology for bringing their products to market. They work hard at what they do and deserve a fair shake.

Chris

 

Andy, if we conform to your suggested rules, then it will deprive me of a good chuckle I get whenever you pop up on an M7 thread asking for proof for their product claims. If that happens, I may get so bored with NAM that I'll give it up for good!

 

I wish people would be more considerate and not post huge pictures in posts, forcing people to read a stretched screen for no good reason! Keep pics under 640 wide!

 

I'm in the high performance bicycle bisiness where light is always right. I agree with that concept but value high performance, durability and light as right. A 1000 gram wheelset is of no value to me if it flexes too much when I sprint or if it folds up when I hit the first bump on the road. It's hard to understand people who come to my store asking me for the latest whatever they just saw on bicycle magazine. Such whatever is not yet available nor it will be for several months but the hipe beggins as soon as possible so the manufacturer can gauge customer reaction and in turn decide how much product to make. Some people ask me to order expensive stuff without knowing much other than what an ad in a mag says. Other people wait for the product to hit the market, we do some installs and get some real world feedback before they drop their cash. I can't look down on the guy who gets all excited and wants to buy whatever as soon as it becomes available because it'll bling out their bike. The guy or girl has the money and they just ride a nice bike around for fun. They don't care that the whatever isn't stiff or that it's not strong enough, they don't need it to be all that. Sometimes been light is just right, but not for me. God bless this country, we have the right to choose. It all keeps the economy going and many of us very happy. Andy, you've made your point. We know you need proof before you spend your money but not everybody thinks like you. Take your gloves off and let the vendors prosper or fall by their own weight. This thread is to ridicule the mentality of some of our comunity members and is of no constructive value. I hope you can find better use for your brilliant mind and spare time. I look forward to your better contributions to our comunity in the future. With all due respect, this is my opinion. Thanx for your time.

 

minibrute, you don't get it.
In your example, you use an absolute, re:weight. Where Andy, and many people have a problem is when vendors use relative comparisons (i.e. "ours is the best", or "beats all the others") but can't or refuse to say WHY it's 'the best'.
If someone wants to buy something because it's new - rock on! Heck, for any reason - It's YOUR money. But if someone says they're buying something BECAUSE it's 'the best', is it not reasonable to ask what information leads them to believe this? (and a vendor's promise, while a data point, fails to address the 'why' or 'how much'.)
I don't see this thread is about ridicule, it's about being forthright.
Absolutes are fine: Light, fast, big, small, new, different
Relatives need a little backup: Lighter, faster, smaller, best
If vendors don't want to discuss their product, they can put it in vendor announcements and then it's not open for discussion (until someone posts it elsewhere... )

 

Your statements above suggest that if someone asks for substantiating data, that is a form of bashing. If any vendor comes on a forum like this and makes comparative claims (e.g., our widget is absolutely better than any other widget out there), it is quite reasonable for that vendor to receive some inquiries about the basis for the claims. If the inquiry is done in a civil manner, then that is not bashing.

The internet with its chat rooms, forums, websites, etc. does allow for the very rapid exchange of information. The internet also has had a great impact on the way business is conducted. If someone (vendor) does make a quantitative claim about one of their products on a forum, and chooses to ignore reasonable inquiries, then, IMO, that vendor should consider either a different advertising venue or a different approach in presenting a product. That some people are willing to ask vendors for more information has been most helpful to many of us in making educated decisions about products that we purchase. Fortunately, we live in a country where we can make independent decisions, and spend our money in any way that we see fit. If any of us chooses to accept a vendor's unsubstantiated cliams, then "caveat emptor" should be underlined and printed in a large font!

The suggestions Andy has made are just "guidelines" for evaluating a product post. I would add another category: SBSB --- Some Bark, Some Bite .

 

I agree with you completely. The problem we continuosly seem to see is that people don't want to be civilized.

I am not saying that we should ask for people to back up their claims but keep in mind when it comes from the consumer it is an opinion of sorts when there is no impirical data.

I just wish some people would be more civilized in their discussions.

OK- that was my last one on this topic.... I promise not to invade this thread any further.

Chris

 

Close, but not quite: (A) is correct, but I've avoided buying parts when I couldn't understand the empirical data. In fact, I know that I've waited until other people bought the part and then reported back to me that it made "an appreciable difference".

I've also seen this behavior from several other MINI owners. When doing mods, I've noticed that everyone wants the same parts that they've seen working in someone else's car. And no amount of empirical data will make them try another vendor's offerings until they've seen it and heard rave reviews.

 

Andy,

Perhaps a radical idea; NAM is free and should stay that way. However, we have more than enough independent party testing available to us right here. We can certainly support an internal testing program of some sort for a fee. A rotating schedule of testers...

I'm in a rush so I cannot quite detail my thoughts.

Michael

 

Eric Rowland: My wife says I'm "the best". She doesn't provide me with quantitative measurements or dyno plots, she just tells me. And I accept it, although I'm skeptical of her data collection techniques.

RECOOP: Consider, for a moment, that we're all effectively on the same page here, and just arguing over semantics. You've said (and rightly so) that if a vendor makes an (Dear God, to use this acronym pains my soul...) ABNB claim, that he or she should not then hide from queries for more information. No doubt! Absolutely! But I think we're all to wrapped up in the frivolity of this argument to see that under no circumstances is any vendor REQUIRED to make any quantitative claims out of the gate. Your post seems relatively in agreement with that, although you still seem to be laying into CUSTOMAV. Curious...

To be brutally honest, everyone, the only bashing that seems to happen around here comes in the form of topics such as this. It's been well agreed that Andy has an axe to grind with vendors in general, and that has been evidenced in his continual avalanches of vitriol toward anyone announcing a new product.

Let's all go drive our fun little cars, and take a scientific measurement of the width of our grins. That will determine, once and for all, the actual performance of our MINIs.

 

How much for that tube? Also, what did you guys do with the bypass valve part? thanks

 

since this site is devoted to a car and this particulare forum to improving it's performance (mathematics and engineering which hopefully translates to driving pleasure), is Andy doing anything wrong by asking the vendors to show concrete evidence before boasting thru nonfactual claims about their products? No one is right or wrong all the time and while Andy might have stated things in the past that we don't agree with, he deserves to be applauded when he suggests something that is good for us all. But Reading the negative reactions to this thread only reminds me that we live in consumption society where during a 30 second colorful tv ad we are conveinced that eating 3000 calorie cholestral loaded burger is fine then 2 minutes later we buy $80 pills to burn the fat off! consumption junkies are not interested in logic,facts or figures but in the act consuming.

 

So since we are planning to hold vendors to these new rules, we need to split some of the work up among people

Who wants to ask MINI for real HP numbers? We all know many of the JCW kits are getting the 210 advertised....and yet many of you buy them. So lets ask them for numbers and dynos.

Up next, who is asking MINI to prove the 163 advertised for the MCS or 115 for the MC that neither of them truly make from the factory?

And another position(maybe more since this one is a big task) Who will be asking the main fast food chains for all the nutrition numbers and numbers showing how much energy your body will gain from their assorted foods.

Cell phone companies...or online service providers? Lets see the number for their connections, the speed etc.

Just pointing out all the things you guys buy without asking for numbers....including the CAR you are modding to begin with.

As I've said before, i agree that vendors should offer numbers....but you guys portray in a goofy way. You say you wont buy anything without seeing the numbers from the vendor, and yet you are driving around in a MINI and the only numbers you saw were the advertised "stock" horsepower and MAYBE you saw numbers tested in a magazine of sorts(thats a separate story....that isnt the vendors) And that's not to mention, the AGS costs what, like $200? You are being "careful buyers" by asking for numbers before spending that much money on a part. Now i will remind you that you just bought a car for in the area of $20000...maybe way more, and that was without seeing any real numbers from the 'vendor' BMW/MINIUSA.

Now all of you are saying, i bought the car cause i like the look, or i like the feel from a test drive. That is just like the thought process that you denounce when someone admits to buying an intake or exhaust because they like the noise, and the expected HP gain.

I dont disagree with you in the fact that vendors should help us out with the numbers....but please realize how silly it is when you state you wont buy it without numbers, when everyday you spend money on things without seeing numbers.....

Andy, like you said, this is all about discussion, so i would love to hear your response to this, i dont want it to get lost among all the other posts

 

I think you are misunderstanding the point of this thread. You wrote:

The choice of whether or not to post numbers is UP TO THE VENDOR:

If you come out with a new part and post about it here, use one of these two simple choices for the introduction:

1) Announce the part and describe it, but don't make any QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance. For example, instead of saying "it outflows every other widget on the market", say "it sounds great and is available in your choice of red or blue".

- OR -

2) Announce the part and describe it, and make whatever QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance that you want. BUT, do not get mad and complain when users ask for data to back up the claims. For example, instead of saying "We measured 10% more efficiency, but we refuse to present any of the testing data", say "We used a Magnehelic pressure gauge to check vacuum levels at the entrance to the supercharger at WOT, 6,000 rpm in 2nd gear on a MCS with 15% pulley. Stock measured 11 inches of vacuum, while the widget measured 10 inches of vacuum under the same conditions. "

 

Actually, this happens all the time. For example Ford's SVT Mustang and Mazda's Miata and RX-8 all came out with bogus marketing numbers, and both companies made reparations or offered a buy-back to those who purchased based on those false marketing claims.

I've seen a variety of dyno runs on this site and while the HP certainly varies from car to car, there's nothing that I recall which questions the basic power level of either car. The numbers bear out.
Do you have info to the contrary?

 

Oh, i know its very common for the numbers to be off....lots of companies do it....that is exactly my point. Although i heard the power difference on the RX-8 was huge...but that's off topic. Although i have seen a JCW dyno'd at around 185-190...which to me is pretty worry worthy for the amount paid(again slightly off topic, you could start a whole new thread for that one)

You will find that the 'basic' power levels on the MC tend to be around 100-105 or something. Thats a small difference...yes, but i think maybe my point is being missed. If VENDOR X (no one in particular...this is hypothetical) presented his new part 'FLG' and gave numbers that were very thoroughly tested....the numbers will STILL vary from car to car....its a way of life in the car modding industry.

So far the analogy still stands....those are just base numbers. I was inquiring with hypothetical ideas such as talking to MINIUSA or McDonalds about getting numbers from them. My point is that you shouldnt hold vendors to stricter rules than any other company. If you are for asking vendors for numbers AND dynos to prove numbers, then you should ,by the same logic, be asking everyone else....the example you quoted was MINIUSA. I know its normal for the numbers to vary, i was pointing out that i have yet to see a MINIUSA dyno....so you guys should ask them too.

 

Ok, so mine does not COMPLETELY fall under this topic header, but in many cases it does.

MINIUSA(just gonna use this one again since i just used it in another response)--- They obviously didnt choose option number 1. They gave numbers so it obvious that they must do number 2 then. Which states they can give numbers, but should be ready for you guys to ask lots of questions. More power to you on that one, i agree, we have the right to question facts presented to us(without the boring flaming that sometimes comes up) .

my point is, why arent you asking anyone but vendors? You are focused just on vendors for MINI aftermarket parts. Why not continually question MINIUSA for JCW (an MINIUSA aftermarket upgrade) for dynos...and why not ask for graphs on how much that white bread just increased your human energy level. Why not ask dell for graphs on computer speeds(besides the fact that their customer service is hard to get through to sometimes )

Another point i didnt realize until you re-posted this criteria. Wasnt #1 the exact thing you were giving peter a hard time for doing with the AGS. It's been a while since i browsed through the AGS thread, but i think i remember him saying that they had dyno'd it and didnt plan on releasing the numbers. Didn't you have a problem with that when they said that? And as far as i know, they never said the AGS produced XX amount of horsepower....they just said things like its better than all the rest(oh the joys of looking into the defintion of better....). Forgive me if somewhere they stated it made like 15 HP or something somewhere....maybe i missed it. But it seems like this is the number 1 option that you presented.

EDIT: Just went through where i though you reacted to him saying he wouldnt provide numbers, and all i could find was you teasing him for not giving numbers....making a joke that all he gave was words(even though that is what #1 calls for)....but i apologize, you didnt argue against it. But i would like to point out that many people DID have problems with him not giving the numbers....so maybe #1 should be re-thought out

 

"It's been well agreed that Andy has an axe to grind with vendors in general, and that has been evidenced in his continual avalanches of vitriol toward anyone announcing a new product."


I don't agree with that statement, but I would agree with this version:

while it may seem that Andy has an axe to grind with vendors in general, the evidence is that his continual demand for facts is directed toward anyone announcing a new product, especially to those who have made un-substantiated claims.

If you look at this statement without prejudice, it might help your understanding of his motives.

 

I had an epiphany on this discussion last night, and I'll share it with all of you.

Let's assume that I build a new part, and that I can absolutely guarantee a 100 horsepower gain at the wheels. I can show you dyno charts and all sorts of fascinating empirical data to prove, absolutely, that my new part generates 100 additional horsepower. Wow! Hot dog! So the first clown orders one and wonders at the $300 shipping fee. Why so much? Because, what I failed to tell you is that it also weighs 1500 lbs.

But that weight is 100% irrelevant to the BHP and WHP. Those wheels will spin the dynojet like mad, but your front-wheel drive car may or may not be able to move when it weighs 4000 lbs.

What I'm getting at is simple: anyone can show you all the scientific data they want to, and it won't paint a complete picture until you try the part for yourself.

I've seen fantastic dyno plots that show a clear 5 or 10 HP gain for a specific part, but sometimes that gain is cut in half when added in conjunction with another part. For you guys to be really happy, anyone developing new parts would have to try each part with every possible engine configuration. Obviously, it is not financially feasible for anyone to have a fleet of MINIs (or any other car, except maybe old Yugos) sitting around to try every conceivable parts combination. Furthermore, as has been discussed, none of these vehicles roll off the assembly line identical. Some are "strong" while others are "weak" and some are squarely in the middle.

So you'd have to look at a huge pile of dyno plots to get a clear picture.

By the way, Andy, what parts do you make for the MINI? I'd love to purchase a part made by Ross-Tech, as it would obviously be held to your standards for vendor accountability.

TIA!

 

A simple statement of "X is how we tested it; Y are the results we observed. Your results may be different." would suffice for me.

 

You brought up a very good point. This community is not JUST here for us to ask vendors questions. Many times its overlooked that we are here to help eachother out. Ask the vendors some questions...thats cool. But, as members here, its our job to help eachother out. Bring all of your knowledge and share it with others while they share it with you. So when someone gets a part, share it with us. Tell us what you think. Other people will continue to do the same thing, and we will have a huge amount of info on each part to make decisions. Granted, some people will have to go further out on the limb before there is a ton of info, but there are plenty of people willing to do so.

I think JCampos is the perfect example...he decided he would buy the AGS from the info he heard, and now he is doing a great job letting us know what he thinks with his videos of sound as well. And MSfit plans to take pictures of it. And im sure there will be dynos done by some people. Eventually there will be lots of info from performance and noise, to the aesthetics.

Asking the vendors to share numbers(andy's option #2) will only get so far. People still wont be satisfied by dynos being run by vendors...dynos vary a ton, we all know that. It's partially our job as members of this community to offer our knowledge as well.

 

And that is great, that is what i want to hear from vendors too.

Unfortunately, there are many people that are still not happy about just seeing the results, and begin to question the vendors further. This questioning has made sharing the information a scary thing for the tuners in our community. Why would they share numbers if they will be heavily questioned about the trust worthiness of the numbers, or questioned about the method of testing(which, not to mention, costs tons of money)?

 

Hear hear Kevin! This claim of "I can't test every configuration so I won't test any, but I'll still claim it's 'the best' " is lame.

Ahamos, we understand system dynamics. That's why when given a 'number' people ask how it was derived, and what it was tested on.

Why? We already have plenty of dyno plots for MINIs. Getting one from MINIUSA is irrelevant.

Now when MINI comes out with a new product claiming ADDITIONAL power, you might expect them to show a dyno plot, like on page five of the JCW brochure:
http://www.motoringfile.com/files/mcs_jcw_uk.pdf