Drivetrain New Idea for MINI Performance Parts!
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 949
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by andy@ross-tech.com
It occurs to me that there should be a catchy acronymn for these two methods. How about:
NBNB : No Bark No Bite, aka method 1. Announce the part and describe it, but don't make any QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance.
ABAB : All Bark All Bite, aka method 2. Announce the part and describe it, and make whatever QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance that you want. BUT, be able to provide data to back up the claims.
Again, NEITHER are a bad method, and EITHER should be agreeable to a vast majority of posters.
NBNB : No Bark No Bite, aka method 1. Announce the part and describe it, but don't make any QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance.
ABAB : All Bark All Bite, aka method 2. Announce the part and describe it, and make whatever QUANTITATIVE OR MEASURABLE claims about it's performance that you want. BUT, be able to provide data to back up the claims.
Again, NEITHER are a bad method, and EITHER should be agreeable to a vast majority of posters.
2nd Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 145
Likes: 0
this thread rules. I do agree though, parts are not cheap, unless ya'll are rollin deep like that. I personally am not, and for me to just go out and buy something because of hype... that's why prices are so high in the first place, working for a sale is a thing of the past it seems 
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta/Amsterdam
Question for Andy,
Sounds like a great idea. I think I have been on this board about the same amount of time as you have and probably have read most of your posts. My question is are you German or have German ancestory. I work every day with Germans (primarily in the Hannover region) and they are very detailed concise thinkers, as are most Germans. Your responses and thinking seem almost in line with what I am use to now for many years. I know it is off topic, but I saw your German signature as well, and was just interested.
Sounds like a great idea. I think I have been on this board about the same amount of time as you have and probably have read most of your posts. My question is are you German or have German ancestory. I work every day with Germans (primarily in the Hannover region) and they are very detailed concise thinkers, as are most Germans. Your responses and thinking seem almost in line with what I am use to now for many years. I know it is off topic, but I saw your German signature as well, and was just interested.
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by RallyMINI
I always have agreed with your suggestions....just not the way you go about presenting them
Thread Starter
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6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Although I have a tiny bit of German ancestry, and I like to consume a large amount German beer, my major German influence has to be my boss, who came over here when he was 9 years old. Not long ago, I took one semester of German at the local community college, primarily to learn how to pronounce the names of car parts. 
Originally Posted by dgszweda1
Question for Andy,
Sounds like a great idea. I think I have been on this board about the same amount of time as you have and probably have read most of your posts. My question is are you German or have German ancestory. I work every day with Germans (primarily in the Hannover region) and they are very detailed concise thinkers, as are most Germans. Your responses and thinking seem almost in line with what I am use to now for many years. I know it is off topic, but I saw your German signature as well, and was just interested.
Sounds like a great idea. I think I have been on this board about the same amount of time as you have and probably have read most of your posts. My question is are you German or have German ancestory. I work every day with Germans (primarily in the Hannover region) and they are very detailed concise thinkers, as are most Germans. Your responses and thinking seem almost in line with what I am use to now for many years. I know it is off topic, but I saw your German signature as well, and was just interested.
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
One thing that people who constantly complain about the numbers (or lack there of) on this board like to ignore is that providing aftermarket products is a business. There is no way to make money designing, developing, testing, producing, and commercializing a product if you are going to sell three units. Profitability means volume, and volume means you have to make your product appeal to a good chunk of enthusiasts. This means you must not only be a developer of products, but also a marketer of products. Different industries require different tactics, and unfortunately in the aftermarket car business (no wait, in every business) you have companies making extraordinary claims about their mediocre products (I will dub this the ABNB [All Bark No Bite] approach), forcing their well-intentioned competitors to not compete with their products, but rather, their marketing.
Now lets say I'm Company A and I have a great idea for a new intake system. I do all the necessary work to bring it to market, and when I test it I get a consistent 5hp gain from it on different cars. I'm excited, having created a viable product for the market, with the data to back it up. But then I look at my competitors site, and they are advertising their intake system to make 7hp. I know, because I have data to back it up (and the other company doesn't), that the hardcore enthusiasts will buy my real 5hp intake over their proposed 7hp intake. But then I realize that there are maybe four dozen hardcore enthusiasts that know what REAL numbers are, and there are four hundred enthusiasts who make their decisions based on the claims on a company's site. When I look further into the difference in the demographic, I realize that a third of the hardcore guys have hook-ups with companies and another third fabricate their own parts. I realize that if I want to be able to make this company work, and offer good viable product (which is why I got into this), then I have to create some level of ambiguity when it comes to my numbers. I'm not going to pull numbers out of the air like my competitors, but I'm also not going to make myself vulnerable to losing sales by showing gains less than that of my competitors "claims".
As Company A, I wonder: Is this non-disclosure deceitful? I make great product, but what's the sense of having a company if I can't prove that I make the very best stuff? I mean, it's hard to prove, to uneducated cash-buyers, that my 5hp intake is really better than my competitors 7hp intake (no really, it is!). What should I do? Talk smack? Close up shop? Blame MTV? No, I delve further and discover that there are some enthusiasts who actually look for other characteristics in their parts. Some will only buy product that aesthetically compliments a color scheme they are trying to create in their engine...some look for a certain sound...some want carbon fiber...some are trying to create a branding theme throughout their car. I'm then made aware that this is the real market. This is who actually buys product. As a hardcore enthusiast myself, I would love to only make things for drag racers and auto-x'rs, but that it's just not logistically possible. My demographic is...how do you say?...ah yes, diverse.
Having come to this conclusion, I'm then hit with another epiphany. If it weren't for businesses like my Company A and all my competitors, places like NAM wouldn't even exist. I sponsor places that let people get together to discuss not only aftermarket performance parts, but windshield cracks, dealership pricing, bonnet stripes, tire size options, engine detailing, and a slew of other topics. My company actually helps to fund a place where people can come and do their own research...where they get to pick parts based on their own criteria for MEASURING what is valuable to them. This funding, along with the other sponsoring Company A does at Mini events, is something no nay-sayer will ever do for this community. I feel good about this. I feel like my company and its parts have a purpose and a place here. And then I just hope that other people come to this conclusion someday too.
Now lets say I'm Company A and I have a great idea for a new intake system. I do all the necessary work to bring it to market, and when I test it I get a consistent 5hp gain from it on different cars. I'm excited, having created a viable product for the market, with the data to back it up. But then I look at my competitors site, and they are advertising their intake system to make 7hp. I know, because I have data to back it up (and the other company doesn't), that the hardcore enthusiasts will buy my real 5hp intake over their proposed 7hp intake. But then I realize that there are maybe four dozen hardcore enthusiasts that know what REAL numbers are, and there are four hundred enthusiasts who make their decisions based on the claims on a company's site. When I look further into the difference in the demographic, I realize that a third of the hardcore guys have hook-ups with companies and another third fabricate their own parts. I realize that if I want to be able to make this company work, and offer good viable product (which is why I got into this), then I have to create some level of ambiguity when it comes to my numbers. I'm not going to pull numbers out of the air like my competitors, but I'm also not going to make myself vulnerable to losing sales by showing gains less than that of my competitors "claims".
As Company A, I wonder: Is this non-disclosure deceitful? I make great product, but what's the sense of having a company if I can't prove that I make the very best stuff? I mean, it's hard to prove, to uneducated cash-buyers, that my 5hp intake is really better than my competitors 7hp intake (no really, it is!). What should I do? Talk smack? Close up shop? Blame MTV? No, I delve further and discover that there are some enthusiasts who actually look for other characteristics in their parts. Some will only buy product that aesthetically compliments a color scheme they are trying to create in their engine...some look for a certain sound...some want carbon fiber...some are trying to create a branding theme throughout their car. I'm then made aware that this is the real market. This is who actually buys product. As a hardcore enthusiast myself, I would love to only make things for drag racers and auto-x'rs, but that it's just not logistically possible. My demographic is...how do you say?...ah yes, diverse.
Having come to this conclusion, I'm then hit with another epiphany. If it weren't for businesses like my Company A and all my competitors, places like NAM wouldn't even exist. I sponsor places that let people get together to discuss not only aftermarket performance parts, but windshield cracks, dealership pricing, bonnet stripes, tire size options, engine detailing, and a slew of other topics. My company actually helps to fund a place where people can come and do their own research...where they get to pick parts based on their own criteria for MEASURING what is valuable to them. This funding, along with the other sponsoring Company A does at Mini events, is something no nay-sayer will ever do for this community. I feel good about this. I feel like my company and its parts have a purpose and a place here. And then I just hope that other people come to this conclusion someday too.
Last edited by BelowRadar; Apr 27, 2005 at 11:11 AM. Reason: grammar
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,143
Likes: 1
From: Florida
LOVE this thread and I agree 100%! Unfortunately there is another rule that will negate it's effectiveness...there are a LOT of stupid people out there, that will believe anything they read on the internet! LOL
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 949
Likes: 0
From: Charlotte, NC
Originally Posted by BelowRadar
One thing that people who constantly complain about the numbers (or lack there of) on this board like to ignore is that providing aftermarket products is a business. There is no way to make money designing, developing, testing, producing, and commercializing a product if you are going to sell three units. Profitability means volume, and volume means you have to make your product appeal to a good chunk of enthusiasts. This means you must not only be a developer of products, but also a marketer of products. Different industries require different tactics, and unfortunately in the aftermarket car business (no wait, in every business) you have companies making extraordinary claims about their mediocre products (I will dub this the ABNB [All Bark No Bite] approach), forcing their well0intentioned competitors to not compete with their products, but rather, their marketing.
Now lets say I'm Company A and I have a great idea for a new intake system. I do all the necessary work to bring it to market, and when I test it I get a consistent 5hp gain from it on different cars. I'm excited, having created a viable product for the market, with the data to back it up. But then I look at my competitors site, and they are advertising their intake system to make 7hp. I know, because I have data to back it up (and the other company doesn't), that the hardcore enthusiasts will buy my real 5hp intake over their proposed 7hp intake. But then I realize that there are maybe four dozen hardcore enthusiasts that know what REAL numbers are, and there are four hundred enthusiasts who make their decisions based on the claims on a company's site. When I look further into the difference in the demographic, I realize that a third of the hardcore guys have hook-ups with companies and another third fabricate their own parts. I realize that if I want to be able to make this company work, and offer good viable product (which is why I got into this), then I have to create some level of ambiguity when it comes to my numbers. I'm not going to pull numbers out of the air like my competitors, but I'm also not going to make myself vulnerable to losing sales by showing gains less than that of my competitors "claims".
As Company A, I wonder: Is this non-disclosure deceitful? I make great product, but what's the sense of having a company if I can't prove that I make the very best stuff? I mean, it's hard to prove, to uneducated cash-buyers, that my 5hp intake is really better than my competitors 7hp intake (no really, it is!). What should I do? Talk smack? Close up shop? Blame MTV? No, I delve further and discover that there are some enthusiasts who actually look for other characteristics in their parts. Some will only buy product that aesthetically compliments a color scheme they are trying to create in their engine...some look for a certain sound...some want carbon fiber...some are trying to create a branding theme throughout their car. I'm then made aware that this is the real market. This is who actually buys product. As a hardcore enthusiast myself, I would love to only make things for drag racers and auto-x'rs, but that it just not logistically possible. My demographic is...how do you say?...ah yes, diverse.
Having come to this conclusion, I'm then hit with another epiphany. If it weren't for businesses like my Company A and all my competitors, places like NAM wouldn't even exist. I sponsor places that let people get together to discuss not only aftermarket performance parts, but windshield cracks, dealership pricing, bonnet stripes, tire size options, engine detailing, and a slew of other topics. My company actually helps to fund a place where people can come and do their own research...where they get to pick parts based on their own criteria for MEASURING what is valuable to them. This funding, along with the other sponsoring Company A does at Mini events, is something no nay-sayer will ever do for this community. I feel good about this. I feel like my company and its parts have a purpose and a place here. And then I just hope that other people come to this conclusion someday too.
Now lets say I'm Company A and I have a great idea for a new intake system. I do all the necessary work to bring it to market, and when I test it I get a consistent 5hp gain from it on different cars. I'm excited, having created a viable product for the market, with the data to back it up. But then I look at my competitors site, and they are advertising their intake system to make 7hp. I know, because I have data to back it up (and the other company doesn't), that the hardcore enthusiasts will buy my real 5hp intake over their proposed 7hp intake. But then I realize that there are maybe four dozen hardcore enthusiasts that know what REAL numbers are, and there are four hundred enthusiasts who make their decisions based on the claims on a company's site. When I look further into the difference in the demographic, I realize that a third of the hardcore guys have hook-ups with companies and another third fabricate their own parts. I realize that if I want to be able to make this company work, and offer good viable product (which is why I got into this), then I have to create some level of ambiguity when it comes to my numbers. I'm not going to pull numbers out of the air like my competitors, but I'm also not going to make myself vulnerable to losing sales by showing gains less than that of my competitors "claims".
As Company A, I wonder: Is this non-disclosure deceitful? I make great product, but what's the sense of having a company if I can't prove that I make the very best stuff? I mean, it's hard to prove, to uneducated cash-buyers, that my 5hp intake is really better than my competitors 7hp intake (no really, it is!). What should I do? Talk smack? Close up shop? Blame MTV? No, I delve further and discover that there are some enthusiasts who actually look for other characteristics in their parts. Some will only buy product that aesthetically compliments a color scheme they are trying to create in their engine...some look for a certain sound...some want carbon fiber...some are trying to create a branding theme throughout their car. I'm then made aware that this is the real market. This is who actually buys product. As a hardcore enthusiast myself, I would love to only make things for drag racers and auto-x'rs, but that it just not logistically possible. My demographic is...how do you say?...ah yes, diverse.
Having come to this conclusion, I'm then hit with another epiphany. If it weren't for businesses like my Company A and all my competitors, places like NAM wouldn't even exist. I sponsor places that let people get together to discuss not only aftermarket performance parts, but windshield cracks, dealership pricing, bonnet stripes, tire size options, engine detailing, and a slew of other topics. My company actually helps to fund a place where people can come and do their own research...where they get to pick parts based on their own criteria for MEASURING what is valuable to them. This funding, along with the other sponsoring Company A does at Mini events, is something no nay-sayer will ever do for this community. I feel good about this. I feel like my company and its parts have a purpose and a place here. And then I just hope that other people come to this conclusion someday too.
Company A rules!!! Excellent Post.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 772
Likes: 0
I'm in the wrong business. As a basic scientist (at the molecular level), you are required to prove your claims. Not only that, your claims are bogus if they cannot be reproduced by an independent group. Though I have nothing to sell (except my own ideas), I can tell you that smoking is very, very bad.
Unfortunately not enough people out there believe that claim.
M
Unfortunately not enough people out there believe that claim.
M
civility?
I think this post sucks!!! 
Oh, I get it, 
this is exactly what you are trying to eliminate –
Meaningless, often nasty aggressive responses. LOL.
Actually, I couldn’t agree with you more.
GOOD LUCK on this one – it will last a week at best! People just can’t help themselves and all boards have bad apples!!!
You know what I think would be helpful – vendors posting all of their products in the review area and users posting their sentiments. I don’t think this area is developed enough.
Bahamabart
Oh, I get it, this is exactly what you are trying to eliminate – Meaningless, often nasty aggressive responses. LOL.
Actually, I couldn’t agree with you more.
GOOD LUCK on this one – it will last a week at best! People just can’t help themselves and all boards have bad apples!!!
You know what I think would be helpful – vendors posting all of their products in the review area and users posting their sentiments. I don’t think this area is developed enough.
Bahamabart
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
Actually very funny...amazing what people see, and choose not to see, what they hear, and choose not to hear. We are as unpredicatble as cattle sitting before a rainstorm.
Originally Posted by MartyR
I'm in the wrong business. As a basic scientist (at the molecular level), you are required to prove your claims. Not only that, your claims are bogus if they cannot be reproduced by an independent group. Though I have nothing to sell (except my own ideas), I can tell you that smoking is very, very bad.
Unfortunately not enough people out there believe that claim.
M
Unfortunately not enough people out there believe that claim.
M
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by andy@ross-tech.com
Great post, BelowRadar.
As someone who appreciates the science behind things, I certainly look for performance, but I also consider other things like price and aesthetic. The new rims I am buying were based on the following criteria (roughly in this order): size (inc. available tire sizes), weight, price, color, brake clearance, and design. I'd say in terms of performance (weight), I'm going with a fairly light wheel...yet, not the lightest for sure, because there were other factors I was concerned with as well.
So, I say let the people who want to "think" they are getting a great performance product buy from the ABNB companies, and let the core track guys buy from the ABAB's (or make their own stuff, and help to push things even more), and let the people who are looking for something in between go to the companies that offer them just that. This place would be pretty boring if we all had the same exact mods. It's ironic, but without Alta, Helix, M7, Pilo, and the like, I would have no idea what an HAI was. Cheers man.
Last edited by BelowRadar; Apr 27, 2005 at 12:47 PM. Reason: last sentence
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
'In wine there is truth'...are you suggesting Jim, we drink a little? Take the edge off? I'm up for that!
Originally Posted by jlm
veritas is the best course; if I thought a vendor was making un-supported claims, his credibility approaches zero.
5th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 772
Likes: 0
Where do you think he pulled the word "snafu" from? Personally, I think it's b*tchin!!!!
To expand, what is the "systems normal" part?
M
To expand, what is the "systems normal" part?
M
Originally Posted by meb
'In wine there is truth'...are you suggesting Jim, we drink a little? Take the edge off? I'm up for that!
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 222
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
Both NBNB and ABAB work for me, but from my consumer standpoint I'm more likely to spend my cash on products that are ABAB. I'm not too much into exact details on products, but what matters to me is if the product works and performs as claimed and is worth the money.
Examples:
Product A $100 available in red or blue
Product B $150 recommended by many produces xx HP
Product C $175 new product but is proven to produce xx + 5 HP.
Though product A is cheapest I don't know what it can do. Product C would interest me the most becuase it only costs a little more than Product B and is proven to perform better than Product B.
Just my 2 cents from a "frugal" consumer. :smile:
Examples:
Product A $100 available in red or blue
Product B $150 recommended by many produces xx HP
Product C $175 new product but is proven to produce xx + 5 HP.
Though product A is cheapest I don't know what it can do. Product C would interest me the most becuase it only costs a little more than Product B and is proven to perform better than Product B.
Just my 2 cents from a "frugal" consumer. :smile:
3rd Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 260
Likes: 0
From: Los Angeles, CA
Originally Posted by jlm
veritas is the best course; if I thought a vendor was making un-supported claims, his credibility approaches zero.
5th Gear
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 892
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
I guess I am just a big dumb consumer who will buy anything anyone convinces me to?
I understand people's iritation with the way things may or may not be handled on their planet but I say 'get over it!'
So.....Company A comes out with a product, then:
Who give a rat's *** what anyone says it does or does not do. If you want to buy it and it makes you feel good about buying it then please do so. Don't be such a tool as to try and discourage others.
I will happily buy a new to market product sometimes just to try it out. What on earth is the worse thing that can happen. I am not happy and I try something else. That is the nature of the beast my friends. I realize I may be in the minority of people who is willing to spend money trying something out BUT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! it is my money and I can spend any way I feel without having to listen to other people **** and moan about it.
I have to apologize for the tone I have taken but I read a lot of threads like this and keep to myself and finally am getting incensed. This whole thread has been obviously directed at one person/vendor with no right to do so. If you don't know what I am talking about then I am sorry I have wasted your time.
Please do not waste bandwidth and brain cells to flame further.
Thx.
Chris
I understand people's iritation with the way things may or may not be handled on their planet but I say 'get over it!'
So.....Company A comes out with a product, then:
Who give a rat's *** what anyone says it does or does not do. If you want to buy it and it makes you feel good about buying it then please do so. Don't be such a tool as to try and discourage others.
I will happily buy a new to market product sometimes just to try it out. What on earth is the worse thing that can happen. I am not happy and I try something else. That is the nature of the beast my friends. I realize I may be in the minority of people who is willing to spend money trying something out BUT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! it is my money and I can spend any way I feel without having to listen to other people **** and moan about it.
I have to apologize for the tone I have taken but I read a lot of threads like this and keep to myself and finally am getting incensed. This whole thread has been obviously directed at one person/vendor with no right to do so. If you don't know what I am talking about then I am sorry I have wasted your time.
Please do not waste bandwidth and brain cells to flame further.
Thx.
Chris
