When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
you assumed wrong I log at WOT and at partial throttle, there's multiple tables that handle each.
It's important to know that the simens ecu uses pressure difference for it's calculation, the pressure difference between before the throttle body and after the supercharger it uses the map & tmap sensors to do this. Airflow is calculated off the pressure delta. The table expect a range of pressure delta at a given throttle plate opening.
zero change in drivability on my car, I autocross/track and had an event sunday, throttle sensitive is critical and was not affected by this mod. I do run a modified pedal table I prefer my throttle pedal mapped in a power curve, not linear on the R53. I use linear on my 135i. For the R53 I move the curve so I have a LOT more control from 0-25 % throttle pedal input. Once over 50 % the throttle curve goes to the moon if that makes sense
Sounds very similar to the Ram... I also have the throttle table mapped to my liking & area I drive... with the diesel torque it was real easy to bust the rear tires loose in the wet so I desensitized it on the lower 1/3 of throttle position.
Your airflow comment makes me have to ask, how is flow actually calculated... the pressure and temp will determine density at the sensor positions, how is the flow actually derived?
edit: Whoops, sorry guys totally derailed this thread... maybe take it to PM?
Your airflow comment makes me have to ask, how is flow actually calculated... the pressure and temp will determine density at the sensor positions, how is the flow actually derived?
the ecu calculates it, it does correct for air temp post supercharger
I now have the big TB on two cars, one has a bvh the other has a stock head. Very happy with the boost gain on both. The BVH car keeps setting a code for air leak post supercharger, the error goes away when I put the stock TB back on. Does not seem to affect anything and I'm not going to tune it out as I'm going to a bigger supercharger on that car soon so it's not worth the time to play with the tune.
the stock head car has not thrown any codes other than the evap system, I did not reroute that vac line yet I unhooked it and blocked it off
Good to hear it works with a stock head too. Weird that the enlarged TB's haven't been more popular. 1psi should equal around 6-8hp, right? That's more than you'd ever get from any kind of "cold air intake" and those sell like hot cakes.
Blocking the evap line towards the tank might not be a good idea. Should be fine to leave it to vent to open air. Mate of mine has had it like that for years on his R53. And if you leave the evap valve connected you shouldn't see any error codes either.
Good to hear it works with a stock head too. Weird that the enlarged TB's haven't been more popular. 1psi should equal around 6-8hp, right? That's more than you'd ever get from any kind of "cold air intake" and those sell like hot cakes.
Blocking the evap line towards the tank might not be a good idea. Should be fine to leave it to vent to open air. Mate of mine has had it like that for years on his R53. And if you leave the evap valve connected you shouldn't see any error codes either.
interesting, I did not know it could be left off without a error. I recall having a "reed valve" error on the bvh car but it went away
First the logs, about a hour between these. The IAT is pretty close to the same and the car picked up 1 pound of boost. Reset adaptations between the two logs.
The mod, BMW E65 760i throttle body, these were on 2003-2008 big v12 7 series, I found one new on ebay for 21 $. It is the same bolt pattern as the r53 throttle body and bolts right on. You will need to either tap a vac line or T off a vac line for the fuel tank evap circuit. I choose to tap off the brake booster with a T fitting. Get a new rubber airfilter to TB pipe as it's a very snug fit, trying to put a old one on will be super fun time, I had to heat it up to get it on.
The stock TB is 58mm at it's narrowest point, this is 64mm about 12 % increase in diameter. The throttle plate itself is probably still the limiting the airflow compared to the rest of the intake system but this is a easy mod.
I have not had to adjust the tune yet, will need more drive cycles to see what long term trims do if anything. The stock ECU uses boost pressure to calculate quite a bit of what it does, changing the TB by ~14 % has not affected drivability at all. you may need to work with your tuner, I use adrian and recommend him. Ignore my AFR I'm still dialing it in and it's a bit rich
Car is a 06 JCW with TPR2R bvh, dominator cam, 17 % pulley, jcw airbox, 4:1 header with JCW rear section
Why is there such a big variation in the ignition timing with the larger TB out there at 7k or so rpms? 1.5* max delta on stock TB vs 3.75* max delta on the larger TB...
Do you have access to the knock sensor data? (I assume there is a knock sensor...). Cylinder #2 is not happy at all lower down in the RPMs with the larger TB...
I do log the knock sensor noise and voltage but I don't want to derail this thread, I run much more spark than the stock or even most do. I log without methanol and then turn methanol on and log again to make sure there's no knock. The stock ECU is very protective and will pull timing even when there's no knock
I received mine today and will try to fit it asap because I am curious Off course pictures were made, but I forgot to take pictures of the inner diameter on the intake side. I will create and add them later.
Measurements:
Intake side (outside ring)
OEM JCW: 68mm
BMW 13541439580: 74mm
Difference: 6mm
Outgoing side
OEM JCW: 60mm
BMW 13541439580: 65mm
Difference: 5mm
Last edited by nd-photo.nl; Mar 27, 2021 at 06:12 AM.
Its fitted and working! Unfortunately we have a curfew in the Netherlands, so I will test it over the weekend. Cleared adaptations and checked if the TB was working using the actuator test in INPA (and started the car in the garage)
Intake side (inside diameter)
OEM JCW: 60mm
BMW 13541439580: 66mm
Difference: 6mm
Intake side (outside diameter)
OEM JCW: 68mm
BMW 13541439580: 74mm
Difference: 6mm
Outgoing side
OEM JCW: 60mm
BMW 13541439580: 65mm
Difference: 5mm
Finalized product. I used 3" silicone hose, 45 angle degree and a big 3" airfilter. I cut into the hose to directly plug in the ventilation on the rocker cover and the EVAP hose. Also I needed to hack into the lower part of the airbox to have enough clearance for the silicone hose.
Be aware, its not an entirely straight fit, but its no rocket science either.
-Drilled out the mounting holes on the TB (1mm bigger), as the bigger TB has a different spacing (minimal)
-Cut into the bracket which holds the TB onto the black plastic intake pipe (as the holes do not align)
-Used 2 extra washers per mounting bolt
-Optional: Bottom part of the airbox trimmed to allow for a 45 angle 3" silicone hose for a custom intake
-Optional: Cut 10mm hole for rocker cover ventilation
-Optional: Cut 8mm hole for EVAP ventilation
Last edited by nd-photo.nl; Apr 14, 2021 at 02:42 PM.
Why do you think cylinder #2 is pulled back so much?
big valve head or even a cam changes the harmonics and you have to change the allowable noise or it pulls timing I I'm pretty sure this pull was before I had made the changes
I tested the car today and I am happy to say that I also have 0.1 BAR higher pressure. I went up from 1.1 to 1.2 BAR at redline. Madnessss! I was hoping for it, but didnt expect it.
I tested the car today and I am happy to say that I also have 0.1 BAR higher pressure. I went up from 1.1 to 1.2 BAR at redline. Madnessss! I was hoping for it, but didnt expect it.
Bang for buck level is high
@MrBlah
Thanks for this tip!
Awesome! Mine should arrive later this week, can't wait to try it out!
What's the reason for those two additional washers? Is the BMW TB not as tall as the original Mini TB?
took some time to clean up my tune today, and experiment with a detroit tuned bypass valve.
Stock spring in the detroit tuned bypass valve makes .4 psi less above 6600, below 6600 was no change. Will be putting the detroit tuned spring back in soon once I log on the street to see what my IATs look like pre spring vs post spring. With the spring the car was making boost all the time, a bit annoying. I wonder if there's a spring that's half way between the detroit tuned and stock
logs look great, I leaned out the car a little bit was too rich
My TB has finally reached the local post office! Will pick it up later today. Yesterday I picked up a new intake hose thingy in case the old one doesn't want to stretch. I'll do some logged back-to-back test runs once it stops snowing and raining. Current weather reports say that it might happen early next week...
I did a bit of test fitting yesterday with a spare S/C intake tube that I have. You can get the bolts started on the threads without drilling the holes bigger, but tightening them may break the plastic tube. If I measured correctly, a 7 mm drill bit is what I need. The holes on the TB are that size half of the way already, so should be doable even with my limited metal working skills.
The S/C intake tube opening is 63 mm, so it's 2 mm smaller than the TB exit side. I'm was thinking of doing a bit of porting on the spare tube, and swap it on when I do the S/C oil change. Shape of the tube is already a mess from the factory, so a bit of dremeling probably can't make it worse...
the TB butteryfly is still the restriction point, not sure there's any gain porting the flange where it connects to the tube, smoothing out the lip might help
that tube is restrictive, there's a CF version with confirmed dyno gains posted on another thread here on NAM.
On my m62 project I heated the tube up and expanded it with a exhaust pipe expander, the plastic will form to the new shape and hold, but you do have to get it quite hot to the glass transition temperature, pretty sure the tube is ABS as they weld both ends on with solvent or heat, not sure which
the TB butteryfly is still the restriction point, not sure there's any gain porting the flange where it connects to the tube, smoothing out the lip might help
that tube is restrictive, there's a CF version with confirmed dyno gains posted on another thread here on NAM.
On my m62 project I heated the tube up and expanded it with a exhaust pipe expander, the plastic will form to the new shape and hold, but you do have to get it quite hot to the glass transition temperature, pretty sure the tube is ABS as they weld both ends on with solvent or heat, not sure which
That tube you mentioned should be re-worked for the larger TB! Make it easier to install... I bet he (George iirc) could easily do it.
It'll hurt your MPG a bit. How's the driveability with it?
Weird that stock one seems to leak up top. I assume you have checked that the butterfly valve seats properly?
no change in drivability. I used the detroit butterfly with the stock vac/piston to be sure it was apples vs apples test. The piston is pretty easy to swap out, dont even have to take the valve off the car
the TB butteryfly is still the restriction point, not sure there's any gain porting the flange where it connects to the tube, smoothing out the lip might help
that tube is restrictive, there's a CF version with confirmed dyno gains posted on another thread here on NAM.
On my m62 project I heated the tube up and expanded it with a exhaust pipe expander, the plastic will form to the new shape and hold, but you do have to get it quite hot to the glass transition temperature, pretty sure the tube is ABS as they weld both ends on with solvent or heat, not sure which
Yup, the tube shape is probably the biggest restriction. And the messy plastic welds certainly don't help. I thought about expanding the flattest part, but I'm a bit worried that the whole thing will warp and no longer fit properly. Did you heat up the whole tube, or just the section you were expanding?
Off course pictures were made, but I forgot to take pictures of the inner diameter on the intake side. I will create and add them later.
